Training Routines

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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robeambro
Posts: 1876
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

maxim809 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:49 pm
robeambro wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:46 pm
Whilst I agree partly with the sentiment, I do think that paradoxically amateurs need to be even more careful than pros when it comes to their training. What I mean is, pro's get it "easy" when it comes to zone management, since their zones are so large. For example, for most amateurs a 20w overshoot may bring them onto a completely different training zone and make their training suboptimal, whilst for pros it's hardly a concern if they were meant to do 230w and they do 250w, those 20w will be roughly between +/-5% of their FTP..
You make a great point that lower FTP = tighter margin.

To put more succinctly:
200w FTP
70% ± 5 = 130w~150w
20w range

400w FTP
70% ± 5 = 260w~300w
40w range


So yes, bigger fitness = bigger margins. Whether those should be normalized or not is a whole conversation in itself. But taking a huge step back, before even talking about Zones we need to talk about training to power philosophy... I always see two camps:

1. Train to specific power/HR targets
2. Train to RPE, and let the power/HR zones be whatever they are

You are talking about targeting zones. @RustyCage is talking about targeting to RPE.

We actually all start riding to RPE when we first get our bikes. The serious people and enthusiasts eventually get power meters, HRMs... and either:

1. Continues to let power/HR be descriptive outcomes of their rides.
2. Or, they flip it on its head and target to specific power/HR zones.

I think experimenting with both at some point in the training journey is absolutely necessary part of learning about yourself as a cyclist. The goal is to map what you're doing to how you're feeling. Eventually, you develop an intuitive understanding of how your RPE/Power/HR correlate based on internal and external factors. And you can simply turn off the head unit screen, ride all out, and look at the power/HR numbers afterwards to see if you got fitter or not.

But each rider needs to go thru the complexity of looking at numbers, targeting zones, and riding a ton (with purpose) to get to that point of being able to map all three. It's after having gone thru all that complexity where training becomes incredibly simple again. Every once in a while, I see riders stuck on targeting zones forever, and never 'graduating' back to this state of simplicity.

If that was way too much text, tl;dr:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CcN7Y6SJbOT
Image
Lol at the picture. I see your point and I agree, I personally have more or less 'graduated' to looking at things in a simpler way and see the merits in it, I was just objecting to RustyCage's tone rather than the content of their post - I don't think it's nice to barge in and poop at the party of those who are clearly interested in the numbers. :lol:

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RustyCage
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:15 pm

by RustyCage

The graphic is funny indeed.

Sorry mate, didn't mean to take a dump on the numbers party! Look, I do the numbers to, just I do it as a affirmation now to help keep my motivation up or validate rest. Please please do understand that I'm a big proponent of planning and executing on workouts, just not referanced to physiology metrics i.e. FTP. Yes, time and RPE. HR is good on long rides. Sure, during intervals, power is appropriate. There, hope I've redeemed myself.

FTP is dead!! Long live FTP!! 😁. We love you Coggins!

cheapvega
Posts: 473
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I agree that cyclists tend to get a little insane about trying to find the perfect training protocol. I know I did. I have tried to simplify a lot and focus more on enjoyment than technical perfection. I'm almost 40, don't have enough time to make huge gains and am not fast- so I'm just going to make sure to have fun doing the little I can.

naavt
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:58 pm

by naavt

Ulver wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:11 pm
addictR1 wrote:i won't be able to go out and ride from now till end of Feb.. will be stuck indoors with my KK Road Machine trainer.

any suggestions on how to train with it? i want to build up some climbing legs, but not sure if possible with indoor trainer.
My humble suggestion would be to take a look at the trainer road sweet spot base plans. 12 weeks but split into two 6 week parts. If you don't have a power meter then you can use virtual power as a reasonable metric (though I found it to overstate my power by over 10% versus a powertap). Work on the base fitness then move on to one of their build plans if you enjoy it (maybe sustained power if we are talking alpine?).

Something with some structure / discipline works well for me at least. Obviously goes without saying that if climbing is your target then your weight will be a big factor too.
To each their own but recent studies imply that SST is not even close as efficient as a Polarized workout routine, and on a polarized workout SST has little to no entry whatsoever.

I was a guy who suffered horribly when doing 45 minutes on a trainer on my early days. With persistence and the right gear, I can now ride 3 hours + on Apps like Rouvy, just by watching the scenery or whatching a TV series on screen doing my Z2 rides indoor.

The other 20% of my training is MAP or AC intervals done on WahooX and those are much shorter. Most less than an hour.

My profile is a Puncheur but I like to climb. At this time of the year I mostly do Z2 rides indoor (hate riding outdoors when raining), and occasionally a MAP session here and there.

I'll be reducing the gym work and the number of my longer rides mid February and start to incorporate shorter MAP sessions, 2 per week.

From February onwards I'll also start to ride outdoors more often, and since I live in a hilly area, I can incorporate a long climbing effort at the end of each week.

BlueHubbard
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:22 pm

by BlueHubbard

naavt wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:18 am
Ulver wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:11 pm
addictR1 wrote:i won't be able to go out and ride from now till end of Feb.. will be stuck indoors with my KK Road Machine trainer.

any suggestions on how to train with it? i want to build up some climbing legs, but not sure if possible with indoor trainer.
My humble suggestion would be to take a look at the trainer road sweet spot base plans. 12 weeks but split into two 6 week parts. If you don't have a power meter then you can use virtual power as a reasonable metric (though I found it to overstate my power by over 10% versus a powertap). Work on the base fitness then move on to one of their build plans if you enjoy it (maybe sustained power if we are talking alpine?).

Something with some structure / discipline works well for me at least. Obviously goes without saying that if climbing is your target then your weight will be a big factor too.
To each their own but recent studies imply that SST is not even close as efficient as a Polarized workout routine, and on a polarized workout SST has little to no entry whatsoever.

I was a guy who suffered horribly when doing 45 minutes on a trainer on my early days. With persistence and the right gear, I can now ride 3 hours + on Apps like Rouvy, just by watching the scenery or whatching a TV series on screen doing my Z2 rides indoor.

The other 20% of my training is MAP or AC intervals done on WahooX and those are much shorter. Most less than an hour.

My profile is a Puncheur but I like to climb. At this time of the year I mostly do Z2 rides indoor (hate riding outdoors when raining), and occasionally a MAP session here and there.

I'll be reducing the gym work and the number of my longer rides mid February and start to incorporate shorter MAP sessions, 2 per week.

From February onwards I'll also start to ride outdoors more often, and since I live in a hilly area, I can incorporate a long climbing effort at the end of each week.
Sweet spot work has been the core of most of my training over the past several months, and I'm sure it will be again soon. I spent my summer doing sweet spot work, starting at 3x20' and working up to 4x30' and at one point even 10x20' on a longer ride. Saw significant gains in power from start of the year to the end of the year, which I suppose would be expected since I was completely untrained and "off the couch" in January 2023. Either way, my ability to hold tempo and sweet spot is probably my strongest aspect of performance on the bike.

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