UCI testosterone testing limits?

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theyoungconnoisseur
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by theyoungconnoisseur

I dont give a shit about trans which is the ONLY thing that comes up anywhere about UCI testing, like thats the thing people care about pfft....
What is it for men? and how/when do they test?
700ng/dL?
900ng/dL?
1200ng/dL?

your only considered "low" if your under 300 so wonder what they consider as clean considering so many other sports are on test and a huge % of the general population now days regardless if they are into sports
cheers

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

AFAIK limits on endogenous testosterone pertain to transgender athletes and women with other specific forms of hyperandrogenism only. As a male athlete you can't be barred from competition just because you naturally produce high levels of testosterone, but of course you can be banned for traces of exogenous testosterone.

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theyoungconnoisseur
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by theyoungconnoisseur

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:22 pm
AFAIK limits on endogenous testosterone pertain to transgender athletes and women with other specific forms of hyperandrogenism only. As a male athlete you can't be barred from competition just because you naturally produce high levels of testosterone, but of course you can be banned for traces of exogenous testosterone.
well everyones different, you can be in the normal range at 400 ng/dl and also another guy can be at 11 or 1200 having literally triple the amount and still be 100% legit. This would mean that let's say a strong average racer is naturally 7-800 means he's got a free pass to get on a mild test cycle and see the benefits.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

theyoungconnoisseur wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 5:10 am

well everyones different, you can be in the normal range at 400 ng/dl and also another guy can be at 11 or 1200 having literally triple the amount and still be 100% legit. This would mean that let's say a strong average racer is naturally 7-800 means he's got a free pass to get on a mild test cycle and see the benefits.

No, because testing can discern between endogenous and exogenous testosterone.

robertbb
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 5:17 am
theyoungconnoisseur wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 5:10 am

well everyones different, you can be in the normal range at 400 ng/dl and also another guy can be at 11 or 1200 having literally triple the amount and still be 100% legit. This would mean that let's say a strong average racer is naturally 7-800 means he's got a free pass to get on a mild test cycle and see the benefits.

No, because testing can discern between endogenous and exogenous testosterone.
Not true. Exogenous testosterone is indistinguishable from endogenous testosterone. When high levels of testosterone are detected, the ratio between it and epitestosterone are measured. If riders have been on exogenous testosterone from before their first test/measurement and establishment of their baseline bio passport, then they can basically stay on it and keep it at whatever (elevated) levels are within the boundaries of "normal"

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

robertbb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:33 am

Not true. Exogenous testosterone is indistinguishable from endogenous testosterone. When high levels of testosterone are detected, the ratio between it and epitestosterone are measured. If riders have been on exogenous testosterone from before their first test/measurement and establishment of their baseline bio passport, then they can basically stay on it and keep it at whatever (elevated) levels are within the boundaries of "normal"

There's T/E ratio and there's also CIR (carbon isotope ratio) testing. No need to draw on a bio passport because the CIR in endogenous testosterone should be consistent with the CIR in other hormones / biochemical compounds produced by the individual.

This is how Katie Compton was caught by USADA in 2020 after her samples initially passed.

robertbb
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by robertbb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:09 am
robertbb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:33 am

Not true. Exogenous testosterone is indistinguishable from endogenous testosterone. When high levels of testosterone are detected, the ratio between it and epitestosterone are measured. If riders have been on exogenous testosterone from before their first test/measurement and establishment of their baseline bio passport, then they can basically stay on it and keep it at whatever (elevated) levels are within the boundaries of "normal"

There's T/E ratio and there's also CIR (carbon isotope ratio) testing. No need to draw on a bio passport because the CIR in endogenous testosterone should be consistent with the CIR in other hormones / biochemical compounds produced by the individual.

This is how Katie Compton was caught by USADA in 2020 after her samples initially passed.
Interesting! I learned something.

There must be products or techniques we're not aware of.

I fail to see how any professional rider can do what they do without T. Same goes for most professional sports.

RDY
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Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

robertbb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:46 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:09 am
robertbb wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:33 am

Not true. Exogenous testosterone is indistinguishable from endogenous testosterone. When high levels of testosterone are detected, the ratio between it and epitestosterone are measured. If riders have been on exogenous testosterone from before their first test/measurement and establishment of their baseline bio passport, then they can basically stay on it and keep it at whatever (elevated) levels are within the boundaries of "normal"

There's T/E ratio and there's also CIR (carbon isotope ratio) testing. No need to draw on a bio passport because the CIR in endogenous testosterone should be consistent with the CIR in other hormones / biochemical compounds produced by the individual.

This is how Katie Compton was caught by USADA in 2020 after her samples initially passed.
Interesting! I learned something.

There must be products or techniques we're not aware of.

I fail to see how any professional rider can do what they do without T. Same goes for most professional sports.
I think it's got easier and easier to get away with it, to the point where riders see almost no risk anymore. Most of the journalists who broke all the anti-doping stories and did investigations in the cycling world have retired or left the sport. WADA standards are getting less and less aggressive. CAS is a joke. Micro dosing protocols of innumerable substances are now very well established, and hard to beat without constant daily (and overnight) testing. UCI seem very happy with such circumstances and a tame media, with sponsorship money once more pouring in, and various oligarchs and dictators happy to open their wallets for them.

Times yesterday were crazy, and rather like peak EPO era, the riders barely seemed exerted within a couple of minutes of finishing. They should be practically dead.

Lina
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by Lina

The goal of antidoping has never been to keep sports clean. Any doping busts are negative press to the sports. And the more superhuman feats the athletes can do the more fans you'll attract. But even bigger problem is if people start dying because of gear. The goal is to keep the athletes from killing themselves.

RDY
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Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

It's cyclical. There are booms and busts in terms of anti-doping and doping. We're in a boom period for doping and bust period for anti-doping. Some sports have perpetual boom (doping) and bust (anti-doping). But cycling has always pushed the envelope. There'll be a massive scandal that blows the lid off things again, eventually, as the riders and teams get ever more brazen.

Aeo
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by Aeo

The CIR test is very expensive and is not used very often. You can use it to catch people who are on TRT and get generic testosterone from their pharmacy.

In elite/pro sports you are more careful about the source, administration, dosage of testosterone
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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

RDY wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:16 pm
Times yesterday were crazy, and rather like peak EPO era, the riders barely seemed exerted within a couple of minutes of finishing. They should be practically dead.
Why so cynical?
We all know that the ridiculous speeds is due to the margin gains of aero bikes, wider and lower rolling resistance tyres and the fact that disc brakes allow the riders to braker later and harder into corners meaning they carry more speed down a decent :roll:

Personally, I dont care and I loved the Lance era of super human cycling, but please, lets stop burying our heads in the sand (as a sport)

Edit: And zone 2 training, all the gains are due to zone 2 training

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Andrew69 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:45 am
RDY wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:16 pm
Times yesterday were crazy, and rather like peak EPO era, the riders barely seemed exerted within a couple of minutes of finishing. They should be practically dead.
Why so cynical?
We all know that the ridiculous speeds is due to the margin gains of aero bikes, wider and lower rolling resistance tyres and the fact that disc brakes allow the riders to braker later and harder into corners meaning they carry more speed down a decent :roll:

Personally, I dont care and I loved the Lance era of super human cycling, but please, lets stop burying our heads in the sand (as a sport)

Edit: And zone 2 training, all the gains are due to zone 2 training
You laugh, but marginal gains from all/most of the above are contributing quite a bit to faster average speeds at all levels of the sport everywhere.

eins4eins
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by eins4eins

The main factor isn't tech, but nutrition, recovery and early identification of genetically gifted riders. They nowadays find those aliens, train them smart and fuel them proper.

Armstrong, Pantani, Ullrich and Co. made stupid mistakes in training and racing by todays standard and still went crazy fast.
Imagine how fast they would've climbed those mountains if they weren't constantly underfueled but consumed 120gr of carbs per hour during a hard stage.

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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:51 am
Andrew69 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:45 am
RDY wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:16 pm
Times yesterday were crazy, and rather like peak EPO era, the riders barely seemed exerted within a couple of minutes of finishing. They should be practically dead.
Why so cynical?
We all know that the ridiculous speeds is due to the margin gains of aero bikes, wider and lower rolling resistance tyres and the fact that disc brakes allow the riders to braker later and harder into corners meaning they carry more speed down a decent :roll:

Personally, I dont care and I loved the Lance era of super human cycling, but please, lets stop burying our heads in the sand (as a sport)

Edit: And zone 2 training, all the gains are due to zone 2 training
You laugh, but marginal gains from all/most of the above are contributing quite a bit to faster average speeds at all levels of the sport everywhere.
My comment was fairly tongue-in-cheek, but yes I agree there are gains to be made with all those items I mentioned.

Personally, I would hazard a guess that doping is far more wide spread in masters cycling and triathlon than in the pro peleton

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