Hunting for scraps: training many times a day

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

Moderator: Moderator Team

robeambro
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Hi all,

TL;DR: my fitness level has stagnated for a couple years at somewhere below the 4w/kg mark. Other than on (some) weekends, most of my training is mostly indoors and constrained to within 1h duration. I am not envisioning having more time to prolong my rides, but I can increase volume by training two (or sometimes even three) times per day (e.g. early AM, lunch break, late PM) and I'd like to try and see if it improves my fitness.

I have a few questions:

- does it even make sense? Does 1+1 (hours) truly equal 2, and I can expect improvement? I've watched a video by Dylan Johnson on training twice a day but it was not quite that conclusive.

If the answer to the above is yes, what are best practices to make it work better?

- should I mix high and low intensity during the same day, or is it better to keep things separate?
- what's the bare minimum duration I should bother with? e.g. if I've ridden 1h Z2 in the morning and then find another 30 minutes at lunchtime, is that even worth it or should I just not?

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

Any increase in volume if you are time constrained is better than nothing, but in this case 1+1 does not equal 2
There are adaptions that occur as the length of the session increase that do not occur with multiple, shorter sessions per day.

Thats not to say that it will be a waste of time, it just wont give the same result as being able to incorporate some longer rides during the week.

If all you have is a 30 minute window at lunchtime, then it may be better spent doing other activities that would aid your cycling like a weights or core session
Persoanlly I think you need a minimum of 45 mintues on the bike to be of any value.

Multiple sessions per day are used by pretty much every other endurance sport except cycling, more often than not as it is simply a way of increasing volume while reducing the wear and tear on the body due to the high impact nature of those sports (eg running)

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Singular
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

First, fit in your 2-3 key workouts (that would be intensity/intervals) in your week, where you are rested and ready. When that is done, add whatever volume (Z2-ish) you are able to.

With that said, I would not get on the bike for anything less than an hour for training (especially for volume) - it's too much transaction time. I'd rather do core work/stretching/yoga (all very underrated forms of gaining speed), take a nice walk or just find time for things that are good for you (a cuppa, reading, journalling or being mindful).

robeambro
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Thanks both.

Re: finding time to do things that are good for me is not a problem, in fact my lack of complete dedication to cycling is why I can't get past 4w/kg - it would take time and joy away from other things. And my "hunt for scraps" is also aimed at keeping things this way (if I use these scraps properly then I won't have to sacrifice other stuff).

I'll see if my fitness improves by adding some 45-60 min scraps here and there - at least that'll help build some fatigue which I am struggling to do on merely 5-6h/week.

spartacus
Posts: 1048
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

Don't listen to the naysayers, it can make a gigantic difference. When the workouts are frequent and consistent you are building fatigue throughout the course of the week that adds up.

That said don't expect to reach your goals if you admittedly have a lack of dedication. Nothing owes you 4 w/kg, you need to be consistent, have a plan, and have your diet + recovery in order.

5/6 hrs/wk is not a lot and purposely skipping at least 1 long ride a week is going to hold you back.

Honestly it sounds like you aren't in the mental space it will take to reach your goals.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12444
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I regularly did two-a-days last year and it was great for my fitness…

User avatar
Nohands83
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:41 am
Location: Leeds, UK

by Nohands83

"First, fit in your 2-3 key workouts (that would be intensity/intervals) in your week, where you are rested and ready. When that is done, add whatever volume (Z2-ish) you are able to."

The above is very good advice. I've read a similar approach from various sources.
Due to life constraints, my training time has gone from 8-12 hours a week to 4-6 in the last couple of years but I haven't lost too much in terms of performance (though I'm not racing now so it is hard to quantify 100%)
Generally, I do 2 proper workouts a week, 1 will be high-intensity intervals (20 x 1 or 5 x 5 @ VO2) and then another sweet spot workout of 2 x 20 or 4 x 15.
Anything else is done at top of Z2 / bottom of Z3, measured on heart zones, not Power.
Depending on what your goals are or how you define 'fitness' most people won't need to do loads to make some gains - consistency and doing hard workouts at proper intensity (see really bloody hard) will get you a considerable way.

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

Nohands83 wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 1:14 pm
"First, fit in your 2-3 key workouts (that would be intensity/intervals) in your week, where you are rested and ready. When that is done, add whatever volume (Z2-ish) you are able to."

The above is very good advice. I've read a similar approach from various sources.
Due to life constraints, my training time has gone from 8-12 hours a week to 4-6 in the last couple of years but I haven't lost too much in terms of performance (though I'm not racing now so it is hard to quantify 100%)
Generally, I do 2 proper workouts a week, 1 will be high-intensity intervals (20 x 1 or 5 x 5 @ VO2) and then another sweet spot workout of 2 x 20 or 4 x 15.
Anything else is done at top of Z2 / bottom of Z3, measured on heart zones, not Power.
Depending on what your goals are or how you define 'fitness' most people won't need to do loads to make some gains - consistency and doing hard workouts at proper intensity (see really bloody hard) will get you a considerable way.
It seems like 4-6 hours is good for maintaining high performance, but what's needed to progress? I'm basically untrained right now, have never really been able to carve out the time to get consistent volume over a decent stretch... I'm debating sacrificing on other hobbies to just take a few months to see what I can do. But if ~5-7 hours a week isn't enough to make some decent gains in 6 or so months I prob won't bother. I'm just under 2w/kg FTP, would love to get above 3 and would be OK to maintain at 3.5

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12444
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

cheapvega wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:07 am

It seems like 4-6 hours is good for maintaining high performance, but what's needed to progress? I'm basically untrained right now, have never really been able to carve out the time to get consistent volume over a decent stretch... I'm debating sacrificing on other hobbies to just take a few months to see what I can do. But if ~5-7 hours a week isn't enough to make some decent gains in 6 or so months I prob won't bother. I'm just under 2w/kg FTP, would love to get above 3 and would be OK to maintain at 3.5

My hot take is if you are at 2w/kg and only have 4-6 hours to ride a week, then just ride in a way that you find enjoyable. It's up to you to decide if achieving 3w/kg is worth following a stricter training schedule/program.

AJS914
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

cheapvega wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:07 am
But if ~5-7 hours a week isn't enough to make some decent gains in 6 or so months I prob won't bother. I'm just under 2w/kg FTP, would love to get above 3
On the other hand, you can get decently fast on 5-7 hours depending on your genetics. But you have to train consistently week after week, year after year.

I know a pretty strong rider with a 275 watt FTP and he bikes 3.5 hours per week through the winter plus swims and lift weights for a total of 5-6 hours per week. Sometimes I see running in his schedule. He follows a very structured plan through the winter.

2x per week of 1 hour on the trainer with threshold intervals
1x per week 1.5 hours of endurance

In the summer he rides outside and does a couple of group rides per week and continues to go to the gym and lift weights.

User avatar
Nohands83
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:41 am
Location: Leeds, UK

by Nohands83

I enjoy riding my bike fairly aggressively, so for me, 4-6 hours is the minimum just to be able to enjoy riding my bike in this way - i.e. fast group rides and hard interval sessions.
2 w/kg is a really low starting point - so I'd be realistic about your goals. Genetics do play a part, even untrained I'm 3.5 w/kg and I weigh 80kg...
If I was looking to make decent gains I'd probably be looking to commit to a minimum of 10 hours a week.

AJS914
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

robeambro wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:44 pm
but I can increase volume by training two (or sometimes even three) times per day (e.g. early AM, lunch break, late PM) and I'd like to try and see if it improves my fitness.
Robeambro, did you ever implement the two a days or three a days?

High frequency training has been on my mind. On one hand, we get adaptations from volume so the more volume the better. It's hard to see any downside to two/three a days even if it is for an hour as long as it doesn't fatigue you nor detract from key interval sessions.

I've been wondering about shorter high frequency training for endurance. I've searched for studies but cannot find any. Has anyone ever seen anything like this?

Let me clarify: I'm wonding what the additive benefit would be to an extra 20-30 minutes here and there 2-3-4x per day on top of the regular training schedule. I'm thinking endurance pace (z2) for the additive stimulus. Usually cyclists go out once per day and then rest for 24-48 hours. Runners are often training 2-3 times per day. I wonder if iniating an aerobic stimulus several times per day could offer something we don't get with once a day riding.

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

AJS914 wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:00 pm
I've been wondering about shorter high frequency training for endurance. I've searched for studies but cannot find any. Has anyone ever seen anything like this?
Because there simply isnt any for cyclists that show a benefit
Track cyclists often train multiple times per day, but youre talking a dedicated cycling session, and then a dedicated gym session.
AJS914 wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:00 pm
Let me clarify: I'm wonding what the additive benefit would be to an extra 20-30 minutes here and there 2-3-4x per day on top of the regular training schedule. I'm thinking endurance pace (z2) for the additive stimulus. Usually cyclists go out once per day and then rest for 24-48 hours. Runners are often training 2-3 times per day. I wonder if iniating an aerobic stimulus several times per day could offer something we don't get with once a day riding.
Runners train multipe times per day simply due to the added stress of running vs cycling on the body (think of the stress of striking the road thousands of times per session vs pushing down on a pedal), so runners break up the sessions so that their form does not degrade to a point where they are likely to get injured....something that is simply not a consideration with cycling.

IM pretty sure that I have seen some studies that show that multiple cycling sessions per day are not beneficial vs one longer session per day.
Remember that with a long ride, the training stress in the first hour is not the same as the training stress in the last hour, and this is one critical aspect you miss out on with multiple sessions per day, but if you arent training for a long race, then it probably doesnt matter.

Having said that, if you are seriously time crunched, then of course mulitple shorter sessions per day are better than nothing at all.
In fact, I did hear of a study on a podcast where they had office workers do 3, 20 second "sprints" per day (up a flight of stairs, once at the start of the day, once at lunch and lastly in the afternoon) and it raised their VO2 max something crazy like 20%, but I cant be sure of that number.
I think it may have been a Peter Attia podcast, I will try to find a link to the study

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

It was "only" 12% increase in VO2max
Pretty good "bang for buck" IMO

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28009784/

calleking
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:20 pm

by calleking

I hunted for scraps a few years ago after listening a lot to Stephen Seilers stuff and also Mattias Reck working for Trek pro team as a trainer. Turns out splitting up volume works great but... You need a longer ride on the weekend as it creates a different type of stimulus. Also, your rides need to be a certain length as just riding 5-10 minutes here and there doesn't do much. I believe 20-30 minutes what was needed to make it work.

The only way I could achieve this was by commuting to work and home (40-50 minutes one way). I tried to keep it polarized with two hard sessions per week and one longer ride on the weekend. I did a bit of strength training and stretching which surely helped but the increase in volume, consistency, sleep/rest and diet was the key.

I went from 6-7 hours per week to 10-12 hours.
Everything went up by about 10% which was a huge increase when you think about it. I was 72kg back then and managed to pull off 20 minutes at 396W.

It works!
2022 Wilier Filante SLR Dura-Ace/Ultegra Di2 12sp
2021 Cannondale Scalpel Carbon 2

Retired:
2018 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Sagan Superstar DA 9150
2016 Aeroad CF SLX UDi2
2016 CAAD12 - SRAM Red 22 - Hyper 50mm

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply