What’s your training app?

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cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

Using Xert but I'm not happy about it. I think it's way too optimistic on my FTP estimates. Also seems to have problems controlling my SNAP.

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stermyx
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:31 pm

by stermyx

Im trying now with Rouvy, did 4 trainings and for now im happy with it. Ill try later Zwift.

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jasjas
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

RGT and Systm, the old Sufferfest.

RGT is soooo much better than Zwift, the racing in real time and physics is v good but its a gaming app, so you need decent hardware and internet.

stermyx
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:31 pm

by stermyx

jasjas wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:35 pm
RGT and Systm, the old Sufferfest.

RGT is soooo much better than Zwift, the racing in real time and physics is v good but its a gaming app, so you need decent hardware and internet.
RGT?? From Wahoo?? You can use it with all trainers?

jlok
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

cheapvega wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:24 pm
Using Xert but I'm not happy about it. I think it's way too optimistic on my FTP estimates. Also seems to have problems controlling my SNAP.

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk
I have been using Xert since 3-4 years ago. I find that it is very important to forget the FTP concept and go all in Xert. Experiencing how to achieve a Breakthrough is the key. It will make you believe. (I guess it is exactly what you couldn't do it now)

My friends set up the "correct" Improvement Rate (how much time you could afford) and run through a programe (set up a Target Event Day and Athelete Type), and got significant improvement. The workouts are achievable (but not easy, rhats training :) as the Breakthrough validates a correct Fitness Signature, which the workouts would be based on.

Have you visited the Xert Users Facebook group to get help setting up the trainer with Xert?
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

jlok wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:29 am
cheapvega wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:24 pm
Using Xert but I'm not happy about it. I think it's way too optimistic on my FTP estimates. Also seems to have problems controlling my SNAP.

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk
I have been using Xert since 3-4 years ago. I find that it is very important to forget the FTP concept and go all in Xert. Experiencing how to achieve a Breakthrough is the key. It will make you believe. (I guess it is exactly what you couldn't do it now)

My friends set up the "correct" Improvement Rate (how much time you could afford) and run through a programe (set up a Target Event Day and Athelete Type), and got significant improvement. The workouts are achievable (but not easy, rhats training :) as the Breakthrough validates a correct Fitness Signature, which the workouts would be based on.

Have you visited the Xert Users Facebook group to get help setting up the trainer with Xert?
They have a forum on the site that I have been using.

I still think their TP estimates are way optimistic. I had an injury last year that took me out for 6 months. Before I stopped riding my FTP was maybe 190W. I have been rebuilding since April or so. I am a little faster than when I got injured, but Xert's TP is like 240W, which is insane. I can't finish workouts and my HR on stuff like sweet spot is probably 7-10 BPM higher than I'm used to. I'm going to do a regular old FTP test tomorrow to get a better gauge because I just don't trust what Xert is saying.

Weird thing is I used GC before this and it always underestimated my FTP. I have been trying to avoid doing FTP tests but I think I just need to bite the bullet.

jlok
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

How does your last breakthrough looks like? Do you mind turning the Xert activity public and have a look?
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

Here is my last breakthrough:

https://www.xertonline.com/activities/anwyh4lgetlgdoj3

I just did a ramp test today and as I expected my FTP came back around 190W. My main sport is weight lifting so I guess my sprint power is high compared to my threshold power. But it looks like Xert calculates TP from breakthroughs, which for me only come from sprints. Hence the upward TP skew. The ride I posted was pretty polarized but I'd consider it high effort based on the HR....... there is no way I could find another 40-80W over an hour at my current fitness level. 190W is pretty much my highest FTP ever so another 15-50W just doesn't seem realistic.

Xert was a fun experiment but for me it has created more problems than it solved... I'm going to cancel my subscription and just manage this base block on my own. I've wasted 2-3 weeks from incomplete workouts and trying to figure this all out.

calleking
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:20 pm

by calleking

TP and FTP are not the same. TP is a product of your signature and if you have a more punchy profile will set TP to a higher value. The reasoning is that you can go higher in absolut wattage the shorter the duration. It then prescribes higher wattage for shorter type duration intervals.

TREK Factory Racing coach mentioned last week that they don't prescribe intervals based on a 20 minutes test. No one does that anymore. They test anything from 5s to +30 minutes and then work on their power for that duration. It's all individually tailored for the riders depending on the profile of the races they will do.

Your TP value is probably something you can hold for 20-30 minutes. Check your estimated power curve or your hour power in the rankings. It should be more similar to your FTP.

The drawback of Xert is that it takes awhile to get into it. I got run over by a car two years ago. Had a TP of 380W and Xert has years of data on my profile. Two years later and when doing my rehab this winter it predicts my (low) TP perfectly. I knew back then i coulnd't hold 380W for an hour but managed to do 386W/394W NP for 20 minutes. So probably 380W for 30 minutes in a top day.
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Retired:
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2016 CAAD12 - SRAM Red 22 - Hyper 50mm

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

Glad to hear you have been able to recover and sorry you had to go through that!

Maybe I am just an outlier but Xert's TP estimate makes no sense to me. On the ramp test I did today my 1 minute max power was 255W which translates back to that ~190W FTP. I don't see how that can translate to 240W for 20-30 minutes. My best 20 minute power on the road was in the 200-210W range.

Andrew69
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Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

cheapvega wrote:
Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:10 pm
Glad to hear you have been able to recover and sorry you had to go through that!

Maybe I am just an outlier but Xert's TP estimate makes no sense to me. On the ramp test I did today my 1 minute max power was 255W which translates back to that ~190W FTP. I don't see how that can translate to 240W for 20-30 minutes. My best 20 minute power on the road was in the 200-210W range.
Your sprint power is the issue. Xert is using it to over-estimate your FTP
Im very similar to you. Weight lifting background, so decent sprint power, but was poor aerobically (much better now though!)

My FTP estimates, even from a 20 minute test were always wildly optimistic until I did a dedicated base block of several months so that my sprint power was taken into account less when estimating my FTP.
My FTP is now getting half decent (almost 3w/kg which I think is OK for a 50y/o that only trains 6-7hr per week max), but my sprint power is now down on where it was so plan on dedicating some training to that once I get back to racing early next year

calleking
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:20 pm

by calleking

cheapvega wrote:
Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:10 pm
Glad to hear you have been able to recover and sorry you had to go through that!

Maybe I am just an outlier but Xert's TP estimate makes no sense to me. On the ramp test I did today my 1 minute max power was 255W which translates back to that ~190W FTP. I don't see how that can translate to 240W for 20-30 minutes. My best 20 minute power on the road was in the 200-210W range.
Thanks. Was a rough ride. Head on collision with a car at 60km/h. Helicopter ride to the hospital. I did 1 year of internal nail in my tibia but caught an MRSA infection and ended up in a non-union. I then got an Ilizarov frame around my leg for 10 months. Google it if you really want :-) Almost got my legged chopped off at one point!

How much data do you have accumulated? I think you are lacking longer rides and your PP (sprint power) is overestimating your TP. I browsed through the facebook group and it seems to be a problem that pops up from time to time. Xert needs data of the whole spectrum and if you don't have much data it does not have as many data points to calculate things correctly.

Remember that TP is not FTP. TP in Xert is simply at what power your MPA (Maximal Power Available) does NOT decrease. For anaerobic profiles it's 30-45 minutes and for more endurance type profiles it can be 60-70 minutes. One example: let's say you ride at 500W. Your MPA will quickly dwindle down to your TP value as they "meet". If your fitness signature is correct then you will fall off your bike at that point. If you continue (5 seconds) the algorithm recalculates your fitness signature besed on what happens AFTER the breakthrough. So in this case keep pushing until you can't :-) You'd be surprised how much more you can push when you have a top day.

https://baronbiosys.com/understanding-mpa/

I would adjust your TP manually. Ride a few weeks doing endurance rides and then schedule a Fitness Test with a breakthough: https://www.xertonline.com/workout/pdes ... qij6w/view

Hope that helps!

Edit: post above nailed it quicker and with less characters :thumbup:
2022 Wilier Filante SLR Dura-Ace/Ultegra Di2 12sp
2021 Cannondale Scalpel Carbon 2

Retired:
2018 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Sagan Superstar DA 9150
2016 Aeroad CF SLX UDi2
2016 CAAD12 - SRAM Red 22 - Hyper 50mm

User avatar
MrCurrieinahurry
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by MrCurrieinahurry

With all these systems they are only as good as the info they get. So you really need a decent amount of data inputted before Id trust much they tell you.

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Formerly known as Curryinahurry

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I have a few years/thousands of miles of data in Xert so it should have more than enough info.

I do get the breakthrough thing- it's a cool concept and exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for. But to me it seems more logical for a breakthrough to only prompt an adjustment for related durations, not the whole power curve. I.e. my last breakthrough was at like 800W for a couple of seconds. That doesn't seem like a logical prompt to increase the aerobic end of my fitness signature.

Another question I have- what's the gap between your best efforts and Xert fitness signature? They basically line up for me for anaerobic durations, but then spread to like a 20-30% gap for longer stuff- i.e. my best 60 minute average power is about 170W but my fitness signature is over 210W. I would figure it would be more like 180-190W.

I feel like I know enough to manage the 2-3 month base phase I want to do so I'm gonna self program and load that endurance data back into Xert when I'm done. If it comes back with something more logical then I will go from there.

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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

cheapvega wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:27 pm
I have a few years/thousands of miles of data in Xert so it should have more than enough info.
I use WKO5 but if Xert is similar, as the data "ages", it becomes less relevant.
Its kind of pointless using data that is many months out of date is it will no longer reflect what you are actually capable of.

I find that my mFTP (Modelled FTP) in WKO5 steadily drops off when doing a block of base training (as you would expect) because it relys on current data to determine what I am currently capable of.

When it comes to data, garbage in, garbage out.
You need to (semi-regularly) test yourself across the spectrum to keep feeding the model up-to-date information so it can use that data to accurately report what you are truly capable of and to set your zones/FTP/etc

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