What are people's experiences with WKO?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I don't race. Only target is getting faster + building my FTP, and my constraints are about 6 hours a week to ride and about 6-7 months of the year where I can ride outside and preferably not spend time on the trainer.

So that leaves me with about 5-6 months (broken up into 2 blocks- winter & summer) to lock in on structured training to make the most of. I really like what I hear of WKO5 but I find all the video content around it overwhelming. I squandered the free trial with it so I need to buy it to use it. Really just looking for general advice on how structure 10-12 week blocks with their smart intervals. Or any literature around how to build training blocks with the software (I did find the free eBook from the site). I have been tracking and analyzing my rides with GC so I have some idea of how WKO5 works, but I really want to leverage stuff like TTE and other metrics to make the most of my time.

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jlok
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

If you want stuffs like TTE, you may need to check out Xert. They way they guide you to a "target event" is unstructured, with an assumption that you certainly will have uncertainty in your life, so plan will be broken easily.

Instead, you first let Xert discover your ability (Peak Power, High Intensity Energy and Threshold Power), and then you let Xert know your target event date (e.g. I want to improve myself and test myself by attacking the local popular epic climb 4 months later; or simply a race, you name it). It will then provides you a suitable workout everyday. You can plan ahead to see what Xert will guide you through but you don't need to. Whenever you have time, you fire up Xert and just ride the workout as suggested (there are plenty to choose from).

The same workout will be "different" as you progress. The more power you gain, the higher the demand of the workout. The less ready to train you are (according to your Freshness), the less intensity the workout will be.

Sorry it's very difficult to explain in a post. You'd better go and pay 1 month of premium subscription to find out. It's less than the cost of a latex tube but it will certainly bring you more watt gain than the latex watt saving.
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robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Agree with jlok.

WKO5 (which I bought a couple years ago) is an excellent tool but you need to either have a coach who understands the metrics and the software around it, or be extremely hands on with it yourself. If this is of interest to you, have at it, but you will need to watch the videos, read the manuals and put a lot of time in educating yourself.

Alternatively, XERT is a web-hosted "predictive" workout package that uses similar metrics to WKO (iLevels, FTP, Vo2, TTE, Stamina...) but calls them different things. You plug in the target ride/event and it will recommend you a workout every time you jump on, and that workout will adapt based on your 90-day cycling history so it won't overtrain you but will progress you towards your target event.

Out of left field, take a look at the new Stages Dash L200 and M200. It will keep your power zones up-to-date based on your 90-day power curve (much like WKO and XERT). One thing that is a bit unclear based on the literature is how it does so. It either predicts a single metric, your "FTP", and adapts all zones around it (this would be kinda junk) or it adapts all zones separately based on your power curve (that would be super cool).

I've asked a few questions of Stages support which they're looking into for me around how the software works - I'll report back. If it's the latter method of the above, it will be worth picking one up and using their online workout/training platform in conjunction with it as you'll get the best of both worlds.

Side note, Dylan Johnson's YouTUbe video on TrainerRoad's epic shitness for "deep fitness" is right on point IMO. Don't bother. You'll almost certainly overtrain.

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

OK, I think you guys have convinced me to give XERT a try. TR really turned me off from subscription based services but that was in large part because it was such shitty value IMO. Even when I first started structured training I was disappointed with it. But I can justify running XERT for the 2 ~2-3 month blocks I plan to do structured training.

eins4eins
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:49 am

by eins4eins

I like WKO but you need time and motivation to learn about it.

there is another free option offering lots of insights into training metrics:
www.intervals.icu

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I forgot that I was signed up for intervals.icu! Def a great analysis tool but I'm not sure if it can build optimized workouts.

DirtiousDirte
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:18 pm

by DirtiousDirte

I have used Xert with some success and if you want some analysis to go with your training it is great.

One app I have been using lately with some solid success is Join.cc. You simply enter the number of hours you are available for each day for a week in advance and it spits out a bunch of workouts. It is about the same price as Xert but it doesn't have any analysis. I use intervals.icu for that.

jlok
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

The added bonus of Xert's discovery is that you got a Garmin CIQ datafield to provide live data of how close you're to the limit. It is very good for testing yourself (and also let Xert to update your fitness / power figures, contribute to more accurate workouts for you) or as a pacing cheat (you moderate your power based on how much you've left in your tank in a TT or PR attack ;).
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robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Stages got back to me, unfortunately the new dash M200/L200 only predicts and maintains a single FTP metric (similar to mFTP on WKO5), based on 90-day ride data.

All other zones are defined as simple %ofFTP.

I submitted a feature request for each zone to be auto-calculated based on 90-day ride. It's not that hard to implement off a riders power curve.

calleking
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:20 pm

by calleking

I started training with a coach but decided to go solo as I felt I knew enough to prescribe my own training. This was 7-8 years ago.

I then moved to trainerroad. Got tired of the burnout/plateau effect and nothing they prescribed was aligned with what the science said about endurance training (polarized training).

Figured I could use golden cheetah but after a few months Xert was launched in beta. Since I work in the data science field Xert caught my interest in the way it breaks down endurance training and prescribes training. For me it is a good balance between self coaching and automation. There are some minor issues like always but overall it's a flexible and adaptive tool that has worked great for me juggling work, kids, social life and bike racing.

I looked at WKO but felt it didn't really offer anything that Xert didn't.
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AJS914
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

If one can wait until November, they might have a black friday sale. I bought WKO5 on that sale a few years ago and it was a decent discount.

I like the software. It is a lot to learn and I still feel barely proficient in it.

Frankly, the Tim Cusick training videos plus the sofware is an incredible value for the $125ish I paid. Even at full price, it's all a great deal. Especially since it's a one time cost and not $10-20/month like most other services.

Intervals.icu is great for the low price of free. I'm not even sure the paid option does extra.

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I looked more into it and Xert is gonna be the move. I also work in data and have a math brain so the way it leverages data and prescribes training is right up my alley. I do like that it kind of focuses on different disciplines too though I'm hoping it will give me finer control over exactly what my overall riding targets are. But it def seems more straightforward than WKO and less error prone than getting a coach.

by Weenie


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cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

Xert is amazing! So many cool details, like the breakdown between carbs and fats. I don't mind the 50W threshold power bump either :D I imagine Xert's model is more accurate than GC's but we'll see how their prescribed workouts go. I do like that they let me be an adult and hit my workload on my own terms... I can get my XSS with my own rides or through their workouts. Such a great app. Very excited to move forward with it.

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