Lactate threshold training vs Ftp

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Roadbiker10
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by Roadbiker10

Is there any a significant benefit from paying for expensive LT tests vs training only with ftp?

Do the pros train with ftp values?

Lastly. How important is your Vo2max value in terms of possible performance?
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cdncyclist
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by cdncyclist

You asked 3 questions in 3 sentences but just keep in mind when reading responses is that there are entire books written about each of those topics (LT tests, training with FTP, VO2 max).

There is also context missing from your question - if you are starting from not using any of these (i.e. hoping to move from 70% to 95%) then the answer is probably using the numerous FTP based training plans (recognizing of course that FTP does not win races). The question might be different if you are looking to move from 95% to 98% -while I am not totally up to date on the literature I would guess that at that point it is less about the value (from whatever test you use) and more about the training / coaching / monitoring of training stress and response. My 2 cents anyway...

Roadbiker10
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by Roadbiker10

cdncyclist wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:15 pm
You asked 3 questions in 3 sentences but just keep in mind when reading responses is that there are entire books written about each of those topics (LT tests, training with FTP, VO2 max).

There is also context missing from your question - if you are starting from not using any of these (i.e. hoping to move from 70% to 95%) then the answer is probably using the numerous FTP based training plans (recognizing of course that FTP does not win races). The question might be different if you are looking to move from 95% to 98% -while I am not totally up to date on the literature I would guess that at that point it is less about the value (from whatever test you use) and more about the training / coaching / monitoring of training stress and response. My 2 cents anyway...
Yes I understand that it is complicated. Which is why I thought people who are well read on the subject might be able to explain what the difference is in short. From what I understand, ftp is supposed to be the cheap and more practical method to use. I was wondering if there is a significant advantage to be had, regardless of what level you're on. I'm not asking for myself by the way, just interested in general.

Vo2max is something you always here about. What I'm asking I guess is how big of a determinant it is to actual performance.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Important to note that VLAmax and VO2max aren’t exactly the same. One is literally your lactate clearing ability and the other is how much O2 you can use.

In short, you’d preferably use either to set your max aerobic training targets instead of %FTP, but %FTP is likely close enough for the average enthusiast.

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

To the OP, you can get get a "close enough" estimate of LT1 and LT2 by noting when you switch from nose to mouth breathing (LT1) and from mouth breathing to gasping (LT2). So I wouldn't pay for a lactate test.

VO2 max isn't worth paying for either in my opinion, because a single data point isn't much use because what you want to know is if your VO2 max is increasing with training. VO2 max is a measure of efficiency of oxygen use and reflects a lot of physiological variables, Some programs will estimate it for you based on your ride data, and these estimates are close enough for most people. The ones who need to know more are often getting their tests paid for by their national federation or cycling team.

If you are riding/racing with others, you will have lots of chances to know whether you are getting fitter. If you are riding solo, then a steady improvement in PR on the same course will also tell you you are getting fitter. FTP is another measure that for most folks is close enough.
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AJS914
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by AJS914

Roadbiker10 wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:53 pm
Is there any a significant benefit from paying for expensive LT tests vs training only with ftp?

Do the pros train with ftp values?

Lastly. How important is your Vo2max value in terms of possible performance?

1) No significant difference IMO. Most, if not the vast majority of serious racers/riders doing structured training just test their FTP with their power meter.

2) Yes

3) It's not very important at all. See #1 - test your FTP to know your possible performance and watts/kg.

thewoodsman
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by thewoodsman

I have had a number of the expensive tests (for free, family works with clinics and they need volunteers to train new people), and they are not worth the trouble or expense unless you have a specific health concern or are trying to eke out the last possible performance gain. The majority of my results have been close enough to whatever my garmin or trainerroad estimate using a powermeter and heart rate strap (chest).

Pros train with everything that will help, but on the bike, it is mostly power. FTP is related to LT and far easier to measure and use in training, making it more than sufficient for most of us.

Vo2max is completely different...it is max oxygen uptake, not a performance metric. You can improve it, and it does have some relation to fitness, but genetics and physiology play a significant role in it as well. And you have to be in pretty great shape to really test this one, or your LT will limit you before you max out your lungs.

Roadbiker10
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by Roadbiker10

Interesting answers, thanks. I have a friend who got a PT and these tests are included in the price. This had me interested in wether this really is worth the money, especially since they have him doing it every month.
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Roadbiker10
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by Roadbiker10

Just listened to this. Is it true that lactate tests are nearly obsolete? I have always wondered why you almost never see LT tests mentioned when training is discussed. Which is why I think it's strange that nearly all the fast members of my club are consistently paying for them.

https://m.soundcloud.com/empiricalcycli ... ete#c=3526
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Folks who sell lactate tests, and those who get a commission recommending them have to make a living too.....Insert old line "It is amazing what people won't understand if their livelihood depends on not understanding...."
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

Roadbiker10 wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:53 pm
Is there any a significant benefit from paying for expensive LT tests vs training only with ftp?

Do the pros train with ftp values?

Lastly. How important is your Vo2max value in terms of possible performance?
I think I am merely echoing what has been said before, but, in order:-
1) No
2) Some do, yes
3) Not very.

As with all answers, it depends. The return volley would be:- what are you training for?

Roadbiker10
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by Roadbiker10

So about Vo2max, almost everyone in here is saying no, that's it's not important when it comes to possible performance. Can someone explain more about why that is? Because pretty much every article I can find says the opposite, says how it is so important. Keeping it in more of laymans terms if possible.

Reason for asking again is not for myself but a friend who races. He's between Cat1 and 2. Like I mentioned before, he has a coach and LT and Vo2max tests are included. His schedule is really strange though. The usual mistake people are making is doing too much high intensity but in his case it seems it's the opposite. I think it's a mistake, not sure but I'll explain why his coach is having him do it like that.

For example he has only 4-5% of high intensity intervals for the next 6 weeks. All the rest is Z2. At the end of that period he has two crits and a longer maybe 4h race, and one 4h race in the middle of this 6 week block. The only intervals at high intensity are placed a week before the first race, which is a 4h race.

I am going to get to why his trainer is saying he shouldn't do more intervals. But doesn't this schedule sound really strange? The high intensity is placed before a 4h race and there is only Z2 before the crits. With that small amount of intensity, he is basically doing base training in the middle of race season. And also his interval sessions seem to be way to low on intensity. He is told to do 30/30, 40 of them at only 115% of his LT2. LT2 should be close to Ftp as I understand so that is really low.

So his trainer is telling him that since he has a high Vo2max, this year he should only be focusing on raising his LT1. His Vo2max is 67 I believe.

I am asking this because I am trying to help him. I don't want him having to pay that kind of money for no reason.

This is why I'm asking about Vo2max, since his whole training plan seems to be based on it.
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MagicShite
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by MagicShite

Roadbiker10 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:37 am
So about Vo2max, almost everyone in here is saying no, that's it's not important when it comes to possible performance. Can someone explain more about why that is? Because pretty much every article I can find says the opposite, says how it is so important. Keeping it in more of laymans terms if possible.

Reason for asking again is not for myself but a friend who races. He's between Cat1 and 2. Like I mentioned before, he has a coach and LT and Vo2max tests are included. His schedule is really strange though. The usual mistake people are making is doing too much high intensity but in his case it seems it's the opposite. I think it's a mistake, not sure but I'll explain why his coach is having him do it like that.

For example he has only 4-5% of high intensity intervals for the next 6 weeks. All the rest is Z2. At the end of that period he has two crits and a longer maybe 4h race, and one 4h race in the middle of this 6 week block. The only intervals at high intensity are placed a week before the first race, which is a 4h race.

I am going to get to why his trainer is saying he shouldn't do more intervals. But doesn't this schedule sound really strange? The high intensity is placed before a 4h race and there is only Z2 before the crits. With that small amount of intensity, he is basically doing base training in the middle of race season. And also his interval sessions seem to be way to low on intensity. He is told to do 30/30, 40 of them at only 115% of his LT2. LT2 should be close to Ftp as I understand so that is really low.

So his trainer is telling him that since he has a high Vo2max, this year he should only be focusing on raising his LT1. His Vo2max is 67 I believe.

I am asking this because I am trying to help him. I don't want him having to pay that kind of money for no reason.

This is why I'm asking about Vo2max, since his whole training plan seems to be based on it.
Maybe it's this?

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/your ... heres-why/

AJS914
Posts: 5392
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by AJS914

Roadbiker10 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:37 am
So his trainer is telling him that since he has a high Vo2max, this year he should only be focusing on raising his LT1. His Vo2max is 67 I believe.

I am asking this because I am trying to help him. I don't want him having to pay that kind of money for no reason.

Is he asking for your help? My advice would be to see if it works out for him and stay on the sidelines.

One thing to remember is that he is in the middle of his season now. He should have done all of his building in the winter/spring. You can't build in the middle of racing every weekend.

My guess is that the Z2 maintains his aerobic capacity and the short/short intervals maintain his top end all while keeping fatigue in check.

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Roadbiker10
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by Roadbiker10

AJS914 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:53 pm
Roadbiker10 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:37 am
So his trainer is telling him that since he has a high Vo2max, this year he should only be focusing on raising his LT1. His Vo2max is 67 I believe.

I am asking this because I am trying to help him. I don't want him having to pay that kind of money for no reason.

Is he asking for your help? My advice would be to see if it works out for him and stay on the sidelines.

One thing to remember is that he is in the middle of his season now. He should have done all of his building in the winter/spring. You can't build in the middle of racing every weekend.

My guess is that the Z2 maintains his aerobic capacity and the short/short intervals maintain his top end all while keeping fatigue in check.
We're chatting about all things cycling daily. Though he hasn't asked me for help, I still can't help but wonder how worth the whole deal is. Imagine how much LT tests every couple of months cost. You yourself and many others have answered that LT tests don't add very much and are not worth paying for. From what I heard on the Empirical cycling pod on the episode on LT testing, I gathered that for some people, it is not very accurate. Also the Fatmax principle seems to be flawed in some ways, which his coach is also using.

Another thing which had me doubting the coach. My friend had a bikefit right before he got the coach at probably the best place in the country which cost him 350 euros. Then the coach just on a whim told him that the position wasn't good and had him change to a stem 3cm longer.

Enough about that though, I didn't want this thread to be about him. That's just what sparked my interest in the subject.

I agree with your last paragraph. Especially after reading the article which was linked above.
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