Cutting the fat.

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Lina
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by Lina

Well considering that weight loss is like 95% diet and 5% other things, what you do on the bike doesn't matter much. But if you want to maximize then it's as much Z1-Z2 as you have time for.

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basilic
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by basilic

completely anecdotal - anytime I spent a week riding in the mountains, on the bike most of the day, not eating too much on the bike because I can't handle it, big breakfasts, big dinners, no limit on anything - i'd lose about 1.5 to 2 kg (say from 73 to 71, for 181 cm). That's not just water, it'd take 3-4 weeks to creep back up. Of course not a sustainable lifestyle. But volume does seem to drop weight.

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Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez
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by Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez

Interesting topic :beerchug:

Lina pretty much explained it best :thumbup:
waltthizzney obviously don't have the knowledge yet is disputing and claiming cray stuff such has keto diet will makes you feel like s***. :shock:
Feeling good on cetosis requires time and adaptation. Anyone can be in cetosis you just have to stop eating 16 hours. If that person is used to have 3 mains meals and 2 snacks and eats carbs (even low glycemic index) in each meal OF COURSE you will feel deprived, irritable, dizzy, low energy.
People that are keto adapted will feel even more cognitive-efficient, clear ideas during their fasting (in a 16/8; 20/4 or even 22/2 intermittent fasting).

Different kind of diets can work but for sure if you want to cut fats, you need to lower insulin levels and reduce insulin resistance (unfortunatley THERE ARE athletes that are insulin-resistant because they eats sooo much carbs)

Things that haven't been mentionned yet in this thread: it is not only about insulin but your diet also has an impact on thyroid hormons, cortisol level, testosterone/estrogen/progesterone level, Growth Hormon level, oxidative stress, low grade inflammation (gut inflammation!!!!), dysbiosis, L-carnitin level, aminoacids level...
All these factors add up!

My to-do list:
-don't cut fasting with carbs
-low carb diet in general,as little alcohol as possible if not zero, eat carb with protein and no fats preferably after exercising, gluten free, prefer berries, sweet potato, basmati rice
-eat proteins and fat together with green leaves, asparagus, zucchinis but never high glycemic index with fat (although fat reduces glycemic index, you will still need more insulin than if you have green veggies with your meat/fish/eggs/olive oil)
-if you really have a peak of sport intensity, a competition or you are trying to build more muscles, reintroduce a bit more carbs than when you are training endurance
-intermittent fasting at least 14 hours, preferably 16 hours per day
-a bit of exercise (even 15-30min) 3 hours entering in your fasting to consume a bit of kcal and help your body turning to fat oxidation..
-wake up and do some Wim Hof or any breathing exercise, have a cold shower and a bulletproof coffee then try to train 12 to 16 hours into fasting to really burn fats
-a bit of strength exercise to boost testosterone and GH
-reduce dairy: matured cheese is a very good source of proteins and fat (yes you need some saturated fat too) BUT as a lot of milk is obtained from pregnant cows, it contains a lot of hormons that could reduce testosterone level

-CIRCADIAN RYTHM and melatonin level (one of our post powerful antioxidant)
sleep deprivation, low sleep quality, sleep apnea, night shifts, jet lag will make it difficult to be healthy in general,and of great impact on our thyroid, cortisol, testosterone and growth hormon levels
=> sunlight exposure as much as possible (without being idiotic), less screen / blue light, reduce light intensity at home after sunset, use yellowish-redish low intensity light
=> watch the sunset (red light)
=> avoid eating after sunset (not the same insulin release and sensitivity)


-stress management high cortisol blocks lipolisis, and adrenalin will impair your digestion

-chew your food properly between 10 and 40 times / swallow food when it has the texture you would feed a baby, this will help al the digestion, reduce hyperinsulinism, reduce dysbiosis (or even SIBO), reduce gut inflammation all these little details that impair your metabolism

-some supplements if necessary according to your biological values to help insulin sensitivity and/or reduce oxidation/low grade inflammation ubiquinol (Q10), l-carnitin, carnosin: vegan people should supplement themselves absolutely
alphalipoic acid, inositol, resveratrol,
omega 3
magnesium, vitamin D, Zinc (hormon levels)


I'm sure I am still forgetting a lot of stuff!!! :beerchug:

But most importantly, it must be a lifestyle, a good habit, not a "restriction diet", you must embrace it and feel normal about it, it must be good for your mood.
Unfortunately people feels it's normal to eat 5 times a day, drink fruit juices, have beer and pasta late in the evening, have dessert on top of that.
And these people think you are a weirdo if you have avocado, bacon and eggs at breakfast (please don't do that if you have HF or high Lp(a) though) or do intermittent fasting, or don't drink alcohol..

:D

greatstewie
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:11 pm

by greatstewie

think reason its not peak performance cus its not fat adapted. do not need carbs for max performance.

Hw44
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by Hw44

I always struggle with nutrition during intervals period. I am focusing on 80/20 rule of 80% zone 2 training and 20% intervals. So in winter season I try to recomp by being in about 500 cal deficit a day but Then after some intervals session I am so tired. Do I have to be in a surplus when adding an interval sessions or It is good to be in maintanence calorie intake ? My main goal is to be in 10-15% body fat so I am almost always focusing to be in deficit. So what about Zone2 days=500 cal deficit and interval day= surplus ? But how much of surplus ? Thanks for anyone´s reply

Requiem84
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by Requiem84

Hw44 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:55 pm
I always struggle with nutrition during intervals period. I am focusing on 80/20 rule of 80% zone 2 training and 20% intervals. So in winter season I try to recomp by being in about 500 cal deficit a day but Then after some intervals session I am so tired. Do I have to be in a surplus when adding an interval sessions or It is good to be in maintanence calorie intake ? My main goal is to be in 10-15% body fat so I am almost always focusing to be in deficit. So what about Zone2 days=500 cal deficit and interval day= surplus ? But how much of surplus ? Thanks for anyone´s reply
When you do intentisve trainings, make sure you are not in a calorie deficit. On the day of the interval, after the interval and even the morning after the interval make sure you eat enough (preferably even a small surplus). If you want to lose weight, restrict your intake on days you don't ride, or on days you ride really easily.

Some tips that really helped me going from 75kg to 67kg's (1.80):

- Make habits that you can do day in day out
- If you can, eliminate sugar. So no cookies, cakes, dessert etc. To make it bearable, I allow myself to eat sweet stuff only during/before/after bike rides
- Don't eat too many carbs before going to bed. Eat a normal meal with lots of veggies in the evening. If you're hungry after dinner, eat some Greek Yoghurt
- Get quite a bit of nuts into your diet. Almonds, walnuts etc.
- Eat a lot of veggies

And remember: fuel yourself for the work required. If you don't fuel yourself, you're not allowing your body to repair itself.

CasualRider
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by CasualRider

I want to share some of my experiences which may sound a bit strange to some. I'm working on trying to lose 6kg in total. I started at 74kg, now down to 70kg.

I eat more fat and ride fasted consuming only fat on short rides 2-3 hours. On longer rides fat only during first 2-3 hours, carbs after. This helps my body to be more adapted to using fat as an energy source and promotes fat oxidation. So far it works like magic.

During weight loss, I mainly do Z2 and base training. Since I do a small caloric deficit of 500 calories a day I increase my carb intake % which helps a lot feel like a normal person and replenish glycogen storage. And I eat pretty clean, no sweet stuff but still plenty of carbs such as rice, pasta, bread, oatmeal etc.
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Martin.F
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by Martin.F

CasualRider wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:23 pm
I want to share some of my experiences which may sound a bit strange to some. I'm working on trying to lose 6kg in total. I started at 74kg, now down to 70kg.

I eat more fat and ride fasted consuming only fat on short rides 2-3 hours. On longer rides fat only during first 2-3 hours, carbs after. This helps my body to be more adapted to using fat as an energy source and promotes fat oxidation. So far it works like magic.

During weight loss, I mainly do Z2 and base training. Since I do a small caloric deficit of 500 calories a day I increase my carb intake % which helps a lot feel like a normal person and replenish glycogen storage. And I eat pretty clean, no sweet stuff but still plenty of carbs such as rice, pasta, bread, oatmeal etc.
In what kind of format do you consume the fat?

CasualRider
Posts: 121
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by CasualRider

Martin.F wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:11 pm
CasualRider wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:23 pm
I want to share some of my experiences which may sound a bit strange to some. I'm working on trying to lose 6kg in total. I started at 74kg, now down to 70kg.

I eat more fat and ride fasted consuming only fat on short rides 2-3 hours. On longer rides fat only during first 2-3 hours, carbs after. This helps my body to be more adapted to using fat as an energy source and promotes fat oxidation. So far it works like magic.

During weight loss, I mainly do Z2 and base training. Since I do a small caloric deficit of 500 calories a day I increase my carb intake % which helps a lot feel like a normal person and replenish glycogen storage. And I eat pretty clean, no sweet stuff but still plenty of carbs such as rice, pasta, bread, oatmeal etc.
In what kind of format do you consume the fat?
Mostly on the bike in form of any keto/fat powder in the bottles. And fat for "breakfast" immediately before the ride. And as a snack during the day. Snacking and breakfast can be anything high fat. Personally I love macadamia and hazelnut. The more I ride like this the better it gets.
Last edited by CasualRider on Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

CasualRider wrote:
Martin.F wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:11 pm
CasualRider wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:23 pm
I want to share some of my experiences which may sound a bit strange to some. I'm working on trying to lose 6kg in total. I started at 74kg, now down to 70kg.

I eat more fat and ride fasted consuming only fat on short rides 2-3 hours. On longer rides fat only during first 2-3 hours, carbs after. This helps my body to be more adapted to using fat as an energy source and promotes fat oxidation. So far it works like magic.

During weight loss, I mainly do Z2 and base training. Since I do a small caloric deficit of 500 calories a day I increase my carb intake % which helps a lot feel like a normal person and replenish glycogen storage. And I eat pretty clean, no sweet stuff but still plenty of carbs such as rice, pasta, bread, oatmeal etc.
In what kind of format do you consume the fat?
Mostly on the bike in form of coconut (keto) powder in the bottles. And fat for "breakfast" immediately before the ride. And as a snack during the day. Snacking and breakfast can be anything high fat. Personally I love macadamia and hazelnut. The more I ride like this the better it gets. For example today I did almost 5h Z2 IF 0.65 with only 100g of carbs total.
This is interesting.
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AJS914
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by AJS914

Hw44 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2023 3:55 pm
I always struggle with nutrition during intervals period. I am focusing on 80/20 rule of 80% zone 2 training and 20% intervals. So in winter season I try to recomp by being in about 500 cal deficit a day but Then after some intervals session I am so tired. Do I have to be in a surplus when adding an interval sessions or It is good to be in maintanence calorie intake ?
I've been running a calorie deficit lately and I think that carbohydrates are more important than being in surplus or deficit. When I first started running the calorie deficit my legs were sore, I was very fatigued after hard workouts and then recovery was very slow.

So while still maintaining the calorie deficit I started upping the carbs to 300-400+ grams per day. I'll hit 400 plus on hard workout days. I'm no longer fatigued and I'm recovering better and faster than ever.

I've been focusing on slow carbs - brown rice, oatmeal, beans, lentils, apples, bananas over just drinking 200 grams of maltodextrin. The slow carbs with fiber also help with any hunger pains while in a deficit.

hoosierdaddy
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:51 pm

by hoosierdaddy

Lina wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 12:27 pm
waltthizzney wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 8:21 pm
cheapvega wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:04 am
waltthizzney wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:18 pm
this guy really said



Go eat two baked potatoes and tell me if you dont feel full.

Fat makes you fat, point blank. Carbs are fuel, every cell in your body runs on carbs. Go tell an african to stop eating carbs lol.

No one has ever gotten fat just eating to many carbs
The whole obesity crisis stems from people eating too many carbs- specifically added sugars. The whole fat free craze prompted that trend.

Also not sure what Africans have to do with anything.
Carbs on their own do not make you fat. Eating high amounts of fat ruins your insulin sensitivity where you can no longer handle carbs. African countries or asian for that matter main diet is grains, rice, potatoes ect. Fat makes you fat point blank. Mixing processed sugar with a donut will also make you fat, but don't blame the sugar.

People that go low carb are literally insane and I question their mental capacity to make rational decisions. Your body and brain does not work on low carb diet.

Go read this article, some of the slimmest people in the world

https://runnersconnect.net/diet-of-kenyan-runners/
Carbs are the only macronutrient out of the three that you absolutely do not need. Your body doesn't need any carbs to function. Yes it'll come at a cost to sports since you won't have carbs for those high intensity efforts. But outside of that it won't have any major downsides. Eating fat and protein are essential to your survival. Your body and especially brain does need glucose. But if you don't eat any your body will make it for you. So don't worry, people who do not consume carbs will have all their mental faculties available for them. You will have an advantage over them in most sports because they lack the glycogen stores but their mental faculties are not limited by the lack of carbs.

Also carbs on their own literally make you fat. The purpose of insulin is to store energy into the body. Either as glycogen into your muscles and liver, or if your glycogen stores are full then as fat. As a result you also can't burn fat when your insulin is high because your body is in energy storage mode. Which is also why sports will bring your insulin levels down because your body knows that it needs that fuel it has available now and shouldn't store it for later use. That doesn't mean carbs are bad for you, or protein which also raises insulin though not as much as carbs do. It just means that eating too much of anything will make you fat. Yes your body will turn carbs into fat.

Fat also keeps you satisfied for much longer which means it's a lot easier to avoid constantly stuffing your face full of food. Which is the main reason for getting fat, no matter what that food is. Eating loads of carbs and avoiding fats will spike your insulin and it will make you hungry again after a few hours once your blood glucose levels begin to drop and you'll feel like you need to eat something again. This can easily lead into a cycle where you're stuffing your face full of carbs every few hours. Eat a good fatty meal and you can easily go the entire day without eating and without feeling hungry. Doesn't mean that the meal can't include carbs in it. If you plan on doing high intensity exercises then it probably should have carbs in it to fuel that.

For losing fat how you eat is a lot more important than what you eat. But the what you eat can help in how you eat. Losing weight requires caloric deficit. But remember the insulin and it's task of storing energy for later use. If you stuff your face every few hours you'll keep your insulin high all day you'll be storing energy all day without a chance to ever use that energy outside of the sports you might do during the day when you force your insulin down and during a few hours during the night after your insulin levels have dropped down after your last meal. Surely it's beneficial to have your body in a state it can use fat as energy if your plan is to lose fat. Do (intermittent) fasting and you allow your body to use the energy reserves it has.

Bringing up professional runners into this discussion has little to do with this subject. They need carbs, and plenty of them, to fuel their training and racing. They've also got their diets in check so they won't eat more than they need. They also don't need to lose any fat so it's irrelevant to this discussion. It doesn't prove anything.
You're suggesting that fat loss is due to ratios of insulin, and that you can't burn/oxidize fat if your insulin is too high. That's simply not true.

The molecular signal to oxidize fat is generated from being in a calorie deficit, not from insulin. Ideas like you suggested are considered fringe now, and drive low-carb training as something that helps burn fat faster with potential gain in adaptations. The latter has been debunked too.

eeney
Posts: 88
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by eeney

I'm 5-6 months low carb/keto. Racing and training as strong as I was on carbs.... I'm not going to get into the science, you can lookup things like glycosis v glycogenesis and other such topics around fat as a fuel in the absense of carbs (proper fat adaptation), it's an interesting topic that goes against what governments have preached since the 70s/80s. It's not for everyone, there are lots of appoaches to diet that work, and even more opinions ;-)

I have found that low carb helps me more easily maintain low body fat without counting calories. However, when trying to lose weight, I do try to change my training, here are some training changes I make:

- a second training session per day. I usually get on the trainer every morning, if trying to cut weight, I might do a second evening session of just zone 2 for a hour, just easy watching videos.
- I add fat burning workouts, for me this is minute intervals of 10 seconds sprint, 50 seconds very easy.... probably 20 reps, or 2x20. The idea is that the 10s sprint burns ATP, which then replemishes in 50s... repeat. Doesn't need to be crazy hard sprints. I usually use ERG mode at 180-200% FTP
- Walking - I've seen lots of advice on walking to lose fat, so I try to do +10k steps every day, or more if I find the opportunity

Cutting alchohol and snack foods is obvious, but if doing low carb then these tend to be automatically eliminated.

I read a good book "racing weight", I think by Matt Fitzgerald. He talks a lot about avoiding processed foods, portioning and timing of food, eg. eating to fuel your day and training, which might mean lighter evening meals (works in my case).

If carbs are needed for intense training or races then the timing to support the coupling of the carb to glycogen with fat burning benefits for fat adapted individuals is also important. A quick carb fix just before exercise is the wrong approach.

bikeboy1tr
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by bikeboy1tr

I have found what works for me is low carb/high protein during those times my intensity is reduced or off days and depending on the durations if short. Reading through this thread ppl are talking fats but not much about the types of fat. We all know there is good and bad fats, I think I have seen Omegas and Saturated fats mentioned once but we should try to avoid the bad fats as much as possible so reading the nutritional labels is a must. But also if your training on a regular basis your body will metabolize those bad fats efficiently enough.
For me eating lean meats and vegetables are enough to give a reasonable amount of protein and carbs for regular two hr rides. I hydrate constantly but I love my coffee and dark choc. and they balance each other out okay.
I stay away from carbs such as pasta, rice, and potatoes although I will indulge with sweet potatoes once in awhile. Unless I am riding at least three hrs with some good intensities can I have those carbs mentioned above and not gain weight.
I think we need to divide up the complex/simple carbs as each has their place when it comes to fueling. When I am on the bike its mainly those two things I am consuming so on long rides I will eat my energy bars over the first two hrs and then more simple stuff like chews in the later portion of the ride as well as the energy drinks and electrolytes along the way. My drinks have no protein as my stomach just cant handle it with higher intensities.
I also watch the portions that I eat for the most part and I am naturally a slow eater. This is just mainly maintaining the weight at which I am happy with and what feels good. I also weigh myself everyday so I know what foods do what to me.
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bmrk
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by bmrk

Found this to be quite useful to understand the metabolic process, fuel types and training

https://youtu.be/VcYyHXHTeuk

by Weenie


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