Alternative to Trainer Road

[TheRich]

Does WK05 do anything that approximates vlamax or fatmax? I know that Xert does something called HIE.

That's just W Prime, and WKO5 appears to have the same thing with Dynamic Functional Reserve Capacity.

That's interesting, especially considering that Xert is $99/year...wasn't WKO4 much more expensive?

[Nefarious86]

TR isn't just workouts, theres analytic tools, training plans and a forum to bounce ideas off others etc.

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

[robertbb]

Too many ppl to quote, so I'll just lay it out here:

- I jumped on WKO5 when it was first released, and there was a 25% off voucher.
- dFRC is similar to W' (aka: W Prime) but as far as I understand the algorithm is different and, in my testing, far more accurate.
- WKO5 is pure analytics software. If you want a free (as in libre, open source) equivalent to TR, there used to be this: https://maximumtrainer.com/home. I couldn't install it without patching my OS (old OSX version) and I've not got around to doing that yet. It's been taken down now but I believe I have the binary cached somewhere...
- TR's analytics are extremely basic. I whipped up a fully featured excel sheet that does exactly what TR's analytics does... in about 2 hours. Its forums are free (I'm on there too). Basing your training off FTP alone is SOOOOO 2015
- I'll say again, there's really only a handful of workouts one should be doing to improve different energy systems. That should be 90% of your training. The rest is just fluff. It is far easier to plug those 5-6 workouts into your head unit and run your training off that. The new crop of head units paired with smart/adaptive training are slowly making platforms like TR obsolete.

[gurk700]

I JUST switched to TR just cause I LOVE the podcast and how informative they are. Also the variety and SCHEDULE! Thanks to that I let go of my Training Peaks membership. I know they don't have CTL etc. Although I've ridden for 5 years and 3 years of that with structured training believe me, CTL is something you don't wanna obsess about. It's refreshing to start a TR program and go with TSS averages and never worry about the actual CTL number. It's not an indicator of fitness anyway. I push way more power than a year ago when I had ~15 more CTL this time of the year.

Anyway I digress... On the other hand if you don't care about variety, I came from 2 years of Sufferfest. Still love it I just love the Schedule functionality and calendar planning of TR too much.

[3Pio]

Too many ppl to quote, so I'll just lay it out here:

- I jumped on WKO5 when it was first released, and there was a 25% off voucher.
- dFRC is similar to W' (aka: W Prime) but as far as I understand the algorithm is different and, in my testing, far more accurate.
- WKO5 is pure analytics software. If you want a free (as in libre, open source) equivalent to TR, there used to be this: https://maximumtrainer.com/home. I couldn't install it without patching my OS (old OSX version) and I've not got around to doing that yet. It's been taken down now but I believe I have the binary cached somewhere...
- TR's analytics are extremely basic. I whipped up a fully featured excel sheet that does exactly what TR's analytics does... in about 2 hours. Its forums are free (I'm on there too). Basing your training off FTP alone is SOOOOO 2015
- I'll say again, there's really only a handful of workouts one should be doing to improve different energy systems. That should be 90% of your training. The rest is just fluff. It is far easier to plug those 5-6 workouts into your head unit and run your training off that. The new crop of head units paired with smart/adaptive training are slowly making platforms like TR obsolete.

Ufortunately maximumtraner project not working any more .. Closing down...

Regarding WKO5 i got response from support that not possible to use it on Mac then on PC, so u are stucked when u buy with one version (and did not want to use it on both computers same time.. But at a moment i have Mac Mini Core i7 16 GB RAM so i can use it there while i have.. After that i wanted to use back in Virtual Machine under windows on my Thinkpad (Core I5 8 GB)

That's why i like even more Open Source concept.. Im not stucked, no birocracy when reinstalling...

Also found this as Zwift alternative ( did not try it): https://www.orbrider.com/downloads-blog

[3Pio]

Today first day of using trainer this season since rainy cold day outside...

So since rested with few days not riding, i wanted to do FTP test but again using free options (very easy to create FTP test workout based on different alghoritms but on this kind of day i want to be lazy )

So beide spending 10-15 minutes to create my own FTP Test Workout this was optons i had:

1. Rampt Test from GPLama as i can see with detailed explanation:

https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/gp-la ... -pb-hptek/

Simple download the file , conert it in .fit and send it to garmin device

For conversion i used:

https://whatsonzwift.com/convert/

2. Find XERT FTP Connect IQ Test

3. Do Build in FTP Test in Garmin Edge 520 or Garmin Fenix 5

4. To Use Free version Kinetic app


I never ever tried Garmin build in FTP test, so decided to try it, and i try it on my Garmin Fenix 5 (to have Cycling Dynamics as well), and to get more training data.. I read around that this test is not so valid, but wanted to try my self.. And another problem i had with wront ftp stucked in Garmin connect curious if this will fix it..

Im suprised that this test was good enough and matched my ftp reported few days ago from Training Peaks (1W difference).. FTP Value stucked on Garmin Connect under report did not changed, but FTP in device is changed (i'll sync later Edge 520 im sure it will sync on proper value of FTP)

Next days will send workouts as a part of free plan to my Garmin and this winter will train like that until i got Bluetooth/Ant+ connecton to GoldenCheetah.. But sending workouts as fit files to my Garmin is more elegant to me, since Golden Cheetah works only on Computer for which i need some table or something, like using Garmin device is easier since i just put it to handlebar.. I was suprised how elegant was displaying the watts i need to hold on Garmin Fenix 5 ( i never tried before), so seem that definetely this is good enough...


p.s. EDIT: I found this software https://ergvideo.com/ which can maybe be helpfull for somone looking for free alternative

[robertbb]

Perfpro is another interesting tool (never used it).

FTP testing is seriously a 5 year old thing. Any decent head unit or tool will estimate your FTP based on an algorithm. They are surprisingly good.

Again, WKO 5 improves on this with a metric called TTE.... and another metric called Stamina.... which give you a more complete picture of your fitness at or below your MLSS (threshold)

[3Pio]

Perfpro is another interesting tool (never used it).

FTP testing is seriously a 5 year old thing. Any decent head unit or tool will estimate your FTP based on an algorithm. They are surprisingly good.

Again, WKO 5 improves on this with a metric called TTE.... and another metric called Stamina.... which give you a more complete picture of your fitness at or below your MLSS (threshold)

Of course nothing complicated in determening FTP test.. Just ride 60 minute all out Or 2 x 20 min with some warmp up coold down and get 95% of 20 min power.. But on rainy day i want to be lazy so i just use it what i found in devices i own.. I never ever consider Garmin FTP Build in test as something worth to try, but it definetely working as it should (at least in my case).


i tried PerfPro as well, but it's not free solution (for analyzis definetely Golden Cheetah is super powerfull and free), for indoor trainings solutions i found seem that work flawless.. And allready found plenty of workouts to continue beeing lazy of building my own workouts (rainy days, beeing lazy )

But rainy days are not that often where i live

BTW, got reply about WKO5.. If u buy a licence and use it on PC, then if u like to disable on PC but activate ond Mac not possible.. Why, i cant understund especially in era of Virtual Machines and OS Images usefull even for home users (so sometimes very convient to switch easy from one OS to other depened of needings ) .. If im at their side will provide possabilty to disable version on one OS and then to activate on other if needed (to avoid using on two OS at once).. But again, their way of doing busisness, its not my bussiness

[4ibanez]

I do think TR is a little expensive, and I wish I could juggle my calendar on the mobile app. But I'm really enjoying it so far - albeit only 4 weeks in.

I definitely wouldn't be sustaining 4 outdoor workouts a week in the very cold and wet weather we've been having lately. Not to mention all the cleaning/maintenance.

I like that every workout has a clear purpose/training response at its heart - even when you're on an endurance ride, it's not just noodling along, and you're always working on things like cadence and position. Hmm... maybe it is worth it!

[3Pio]

I do think TR is a little expensive, and I wish I could juggle my calendar on the mobile app. But I'm really enjoying it so far - albeit only 4 weeks in.

I definitely wouldn't be sustaining 4 outdoor workouts a week in the very cold and wet weather we've been having lately. Not to mention all the cleaning/maintenance.

I like that every workout has a clear purpose/training response at its heart - even when you're on an endurance ride, it's not just noodling along, and you're always working on things like cadence and position. Hmm... maybe it is worth it!

I agree that TR is nice software.. But also raising the price from 12 USD to 15 , then to 20 USD per month is just beeing Greedy and not worth for the price they ask now. They got to the point to have guaranteed income from users who are grandfathered with old price (i think it's 99 USD per year as long as they dont cancel the subsciprion), and im sure many of those beeing afraid that if they cancel will have to pay more expensive later, they keep paying even witohout using it at all (i have a friend who is paying this because of that reason, and almost not using it). So this generate money income to TR, without having too much actual traffic vs going way to keep price fair but to try to reach more customers (and to have to provide bigger infrastructure). So seem like they prefer Non Active users who actually dont use their software...

Anyway i agree that It's nice for a begginer in sctruture workouts training to get month trial and to check or even to pay that month.. I admit that i learned a lot from using TR (i was using two seasons.. One season 4 weeks, next season again 4 weeks), and i think even one month will be enough to learn importat things (like cadence or position in different workouts) and after reading a little bit to be able to use Open Source way, or even to build ur own plan and workouts..

Yesterday done my third workout for this season, creating plan from ERGDB workouts ( i send a link in this thread allready), and sending to my Garmin Fenix 5 as a workout and definetely not missing TR (i decide to try this way, and if i find that im missing then to admit and to just pay.. And realizing that I definetely not miss TR, and definetely not finding worth to pay that amount)

The screen i have on my Fenix 5 while doing workouts are based on: Target Power for that interval, Cadence, HR

This is workouts from last two days which i done this way (Thanks Mark, TriaArayCoaching and others who created this workouts, and shared to community):






And the screen on my watch (i'll add on this screen Cadence and HR)




And also working on my cadence, position etc (and getting even more numbers from Cycling Dynamics from Favero's, and Training Effect from Fenix5), and when i put this in Golden Cheetah even more things to analyze...

Regarding Calendar just use Excel (or since im in Open Source mood use Libre Office) or (and) any calendar and make schedule if that is important.. My FTP in peak season was 293W., now is 254W.. My TR Paying Threeshold was 12 USD then somehow i trained my self to 15 USD (still beeing lazy to find other ways) , but definetely wont raise above that and definetely not 20 USD per month. Even i can say, after learning this this days my TR Paying Theshold falled down to max 10 USD per month now (consider that ZWIFT app is more resource hungry, so with they payment per month they need to provide both more complicated software, also more resources, events they organize etc, and obviosly they can do it with 15 USD per month with big margin)

Another alternative (cheaper), is Kinetic app which is 10 USD per month (twice cheaper then TR)

And found even one more alternative.. If u google enough u'll find free training plans for Training Peaks which then just send to ur Garmin Device trough Training Peaks (this way u have Calendar as well if im not mistaken. And seem possible to use free TrainingPeaks app, to upload workouts (plenty of formats supported), and to use their Calendar which will sync to ur Garmin (did not test it, just a sneak view on Training Peaks app) )



And for those who dont have Power Meter and dumb trainer, and use some of Connect IQ Garmin devices, consider this to get virtual power: https://apps.garmin.com/en-US/apps/e9da ... 85418c1fa2, so still possible to train with power even not owning a power meter...

[trainerday]

Hi everyone. Alex from TrainerDay here.

I hear you asking for a cheaper training app. I am happy to say we have it.

We recently launch a iOS and Android cycling apps that are getting great reviews.

https://trainerday.com/indoor-cycling-training-app/

It's $4 a month and you can try it or use it for free

Also to clarify on comments above, we have 11,000+ free workouts and free distrobution. I think if you try our workout editor you will find it is the fastest, and you can clone workouts and modify them easily (also free). You can see many new workouts get created every day and we have a workout popularity index.

Yes, I am promoting our business but also trying to help solve a problem that we recognized that their is a need in the low cost space for self-coached cyclists. Not so much competition for the big guys we feel it is primarily a different niche and solution. Love to hear your thoughts. I hope this does not seem like I am spaming you. I won't write anything here unless I feel I am helping solve the questions you are adressing.

Thanks ~alex

[robertbb]

Hi everyone. Alex from TrainerDay here.

I hear you asking for a cheaper training app. I am happy to say we have it.

We recently launch a iOS and Android cycling apps that are getting great reviews.

https://trainerday.com/indoor-cycling-training-app/

It's $4 a month and you can try it or use it for free

Also to clarify on comments above, we have 11,000+ free workouts and free distrobution. I think if you try our workout editor you will find it is the fastest, and you can clone workouts and modify them easily (also free). You can see many new workouts get created every day and we have a workout popularity index.

Yes, I am promoting our business but also trying to help solve a problem that we recognized that their is a need in the low cost space for self-coached cyclists. Not so much competition for the big guys we feel it is primarily a different niche and solution. Love to hear your thoughts. I hope this does not seem like I am spaming you. I won't write anything here unless I feel I am helping solve the questions you are adressing.

Thanks ~alex

How are power zones defined in your workouts? Usual 7 zones? Specific power targets?

Would be great to have an option to plug in ones' own iLevels (from WKO5) in a home/setup screen, so when workouts are loaded they simply draw down those values for interval targets. If that doesn't make sense, PM me and I can try to describe it to you better.

[trainerday]

How are power zones defined in your workouts? Usual 7 zones? Specific power targets?

Would be great to have an option to plug in ones' own iLevels (from WKO5) in a home/setup screen, so when workouts are loaded they simply draw down those values for interval targets. If that doesn't make sense, PM me and I can try to describe it to you better.

Hello Robert, I will answer here and also PM you. Right now we use Coggan's 7 Zones. We only use 6 of the 7 zones since that 7th zone is not defined in power targets by Coggan. See an example here

https://app.trainerday.com/workouts/zone-test

You can see below in our workout editor we do show time in zones as you are editing as well as W'bal (I guess you know but similar to FRC)




We have over 2000 TrainingPeaks users pushing workouts directly from TrainerDay to TP and have heard others also want power custom zones. Now that we have our training apps ready, I am definitely willing to explore it. I will PM you now.

[cheapvega]

I have used GC, PerfPro and have just dabbled with WKO5. GC is great for analysis but I haven't been able to set it up for workouts. PerfPro is great for workouts but the analysis is kind of lacking. My trial period ended before I could really dive into WKO5. I feel like GC + free software to build, run and upload workouts is enough.

I do like the idea of building workouts around power curves from existing rides, and having a continually updating FTP.... though if you're stuck doing a lot of indoor training that could potentially skew low with traditional interval sessions.

In any case GC + a free program like Indoor Cycling Workouts will probably cover most of your needs for free.

[Cycomanic]

I've been using a couple of apps and for analysis xert and GC are the best (I use linux so did not try WKO5). There is also Inscyd.com which according to all the ads I see is the best thing since sliced bread (I'm a bit sceptical), but when I last looked you needed to be with a trainer who was using it. Now for indoor training I've used the tacx app, xert and TR and TR is really the best at controlling the trainer. In contrast to others they manage the transitions between interval and recovery much better. I completely agree it's way overpriced for what it does though.