Alternative to Trainer Road

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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glepore
Posts: 1408
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: Virginia USA

by glepore

jlok wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:26 pm
glepore wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:01 pm
Xert, in my experience, isn't a whole lot better than GC in terms of figuring out threshold. But it does allow for auto synch. If you have a garmin headunit the MPA is very nice, but useless to Wahoo folks. Their training recommendations tend to be geared to folks that don't need much recovery, so ymmv.
I don't understand its model all of the time, yesterday it dropped my ftp by 10% suddenly. Now, granted, I've been doing a bunch of base stuff recently but still....
If you have been doing base you may consider using No Decay or simply do a Breakthrough from time to time. That dropped "FTP" (Xert don't really say FTP I think) just make you easier to breakthrough again.

I did base for last December and at the start of January I did a "test" and boom the signature is improved beyond my believe.

BTW, you did a near breakthough so that Xert adjusted your TP down 10%?

ed: Visit that FB user group and you can find answers from Xert crews, and lots of useful training stuffs there https://www.facebook.com/groups/XertUsers
Yeah, ok, some of that makes sense. But essentially what you're telling me is that I need to do a "test" when the benefit of the program is that I don't need to "test". And if I don't, then all of my training is at the wrong numbers, either now or before. And this didn't happen gradually due to decay, it dropped more than 10% in a single session. I've recalculated it a bunch of ways, using differnet decay ( I turn decay down or off during base because the lack of intense efforts doesn't equate to an ftp drop).
My point in all of this is that the software works, but only for people that don't polarize to a great degree, either macro or micro.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.8) ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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Andrew69
Posts: 593
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by Andrew69

cheapvega wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:17 pm
Question about WK05- will it let me schedule workouts in the future without a premium Training Peaks membership?
I have Wahoo Bolt and use the free version of TP to build and schedule W/O's

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

jlok wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:01 pm
Yea, and I didn't say I don't do any test, I just no longer rely on traditional fixed 20-min test).

It is exactly the magic of the Xert (and WKO5 if you will). What Xert does more than WKO5 are the MPA and TTE Garmin CIQ datafields. They are almost real-time pacers enabled by the Xert algorithm.

Every 2-4 weeks (depends on my mood or what kind of training I'm working on), I just test my fitness signature (FTP/TTE/etc in WKO's term) by riding as hard as possible (like riding up a 13min hill or just 3min breakaway/chasing my friends in groupride...). I'd watch the datafields and see me emptying my tank. If I'm able to surpass it, Xert will get me a new signature that reflects my improvement. So yes, "tests" are still needed but it could be any work hard enough above "FTP". Even a 10-sec max sprint will do.

I think FTP test has a flawed assumption (or best compromise) that all riders have the same TTE capacity, and it still rely on the thinking of normalizing work as if it's evenly paced? It works for maybe 80% of the riders? But WKO5 and Xert has more to offer I guess.

Apart from the normal datafields, they even created this "Segment Hunter" and can pace you to "emptying your tank" right at the end so that you will get a fitness signature update. It's a great tool for "test" and ITT pacing.

https://apps.garmin.com/en-US/apps/b627 ... 0b99a135f3
Thanks for the clarification.
Xert defintely looks interesting , thats for sure.
Shame I just bought a Wahoo Bolt otherwise I would have given it a go (Im a bit of a data junky)

jlok
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

glepore wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:42 pm
jlok wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:26 pm
glepore wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:01 pm
Xert, in my experience, isn't a whole lot better than GC in terms of figuring out threshold. But it does allow for auto synch. If you have a garmin headunit the MPA is very nice, but useless to Wahoo folks. Their training recommendations tend to be geared to folks that don't need much recovery, so ymmv.
I don't understand its model all of the time, yesterday it dropped my ftp by 10% suddenly. Now, granted, I've been doing a bunch of base stuff recently but still....
If you have been doing base you may consider using No Decay or simply do a Breakthrough from time to time. That dropped "FTP" (Xert don't really say FTP I think) just make you easier to breakthrough again.

I did base for last December and at the start of January I did a "test" and boom the signature is improved beyond my believe.

BTW, you did a near breakthough so that Xert adjusted your TP down 10%?

ed: Visit that FB user group and you can find answers from Xert crews, and lots of useful training stuffs there https://www.facebook.com/groups/XertUsers
Yeah, ok, some of that makes sense. But essentially what you're telling me is that I need to do a "test" when the benefit of the program is that I don't need to "test". And if I don't, then all of my training is at the wrong numbers, either now or before. And this didn't happen gradually due to decay, it dropped more than 10% in a single session. I've recalculated it a bunch of ways, using differnet decay ( I turn decay down or off during base because the lack of intense efforts doesn't equate to an ftp drop).
My point in all of this is that the software works, but only for people that don't polarize to a great degree, either macro or micro.
Sorry for the "test" confusion. See my other post for it.

For the 10% drop we usually ask question in the Xert group and you will have the Xert crew to look into it. If you really want to know the reason you may pay a visit there.
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glepore
Posts: 1408
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: Virginia USA

by glepore

Thanks, will do.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.8) ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

Cord1138
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:26 pm

by Cord1138

jlok wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:39 am
Cord1138 wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:56 pm
jlok wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:10 pm
Xert's discovery of your ability and subsequent prediction of your TTE are very useful features. I no longer depend on FTP test after using Xert.
Another vote for Xert. The algorithm negates the need for FTP tests and it generates a lot of useful data. It's not easy to get into as you have to spend some time on learning how it works.

I tried Sufferfest and Zwift, but settled on Xert as I just wanted training and data, without the fancy UI's/Video's etc
I find it especially difficult to understand Xert when one is strongly rooted on the FTP or Training Peaks ATP concept.
Agreed, I have been going through the podcasts and documentation to understand it all, it takes time.

Cord1138
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:26 pm

by Cord1138

jlok wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:30 am

Sorry for the "test" confusion. See my other post for it.

For the 10% drop we usually ask question in the Xert group and you will have the Xert crew to look into it. If you really want to know the reason you may pay a visit there.
The Xert folks do seem to be very responsive, which is another plus

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

Andrew69 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 pm
cheapvega wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:17 pm
Question about WK05- will it let me schedule workouts in the future without a premium Training Peaks membership?
I have Wahoo Bolt and use the free version of TP to build and schedule W/O's
That's what I am doing now, but I can only schedule workouts the day of. Would be nice to schedule a whole training block ahead of time for example.

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

cheapvega wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:59 pm
Andrew69 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 pm
cheapvega wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:17 pm
Question about WK05- will it let me schedule workouts in the future without a premium Training Peaks membership?
I have Wahoo Bolt and use the free version of TP to build and schedule W/O's
That's what I am doing now, but I can only schedule workouts the day of. Would be nice to schedule a whole training block ahead of time for example.
Have tried to schedule the workouts in the calendar?
The free version allows you to save 5 workouts in the workout library as well as access to 728 workouts by Joe Friel, but I havent actually tried to schedule a block of any description in the calendar (just drag and drop the workouts into the calendar to suit) other than the day of.

Edit: Nevermind, just tried it and it only allows you to schedule the workout for today

glepore
Posts: 1408
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: Virginia USA

by glepore

Sorry for the "test" confusion. See my other post for it.

For the 10% drop we usually ask question in the Xert group and you will have the Xert crew to look into it. If you really want to know the reason you may pay a visit there.
Just to come full circle, it looks like it might have been a server glitch, as today its responsive to decay changes-going to none gives me back the full 10%, whereas before it wouldn't...
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.8) ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

Hexsense
Posts: 3254
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

Thanks for this post,
I'm ending my Trainerroad subscription and will start TrainerDay trial this month.
I am also considering Xert. But it is in the queue of things to try after I test TrainerDay for a while.

ps. Did you all hear the latest TrainerRoad podcast? They are releasing adaptive training. Which copy a whole lot of Xert features.

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

Hexsense wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:06 pm
ps. Did you all hear the latest TrainerRoad podcast? They are releasing adaptive training. Which copy a whole lot of Xert features.
There is a decent sized thread over on Slowtwitch regarding the TR adaptive training and how it many not actually be truly adaptive for each individual, but rather a "best fit" based on other users data (of which they have a lot of) and what worked for them.
So if you fit the "bell curve", it should work fine, but if you are an outlier, then it wont be truly adapated to you

Speaking of adaptive training, there was also posts in that thread from the creator of AI Endurance who claim to have a truly AI based training method so I signed up for a free trial but their algorithm hasnt been able to generate a training plan for me.
Seems that me getting back into riding after a long layoff doesnt play well with their algorithm.
Crap Vo2max + lowish FTP but still pretty decent sprint power sends it off the deep end.

They claim they have a huge update coming in the next few weeks that will take care of it and will then be able to generate a plan

Whoever is able to develop a true AI based training system first with proven results is going to make a fortune IMO

OnTheRivet
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

It seems to me with Polarized training rising to the top of the training techniques.....again (Sweet spot cracked me big time) it seems pretty easy to set up a training plan on your own these days. You can build your own interval workouts in zwift and have a go. I do Seiler zone 1, 4 days a week, then a couple Vo2 max intervals 2 days a week swicthing between Tabata and 4x and 5x's . I'm not constantly exhausted and feel like my old self again.

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

Yeah, thats what Im thinking
Polarized with the hard stuff being Ronnestad intervals as Ive never really stuck with them to see how I respond.
Regardless,I will be doing nothing but Z1 (or Z2, depending on which model you subscribe to, but essentially endurance) for March and see what happens.
Work is crazy busy at the moment and I work a physical job so adequate recovery (between training AND work) is key for me

Hexsense
Posts: 3254
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

Do you all do Polarized training year round?
Like Polarized training and then switching what to do on the interval days by base phase, build phase, specialty phase 's appropriate interval.

Or it's mostly base phase things, and not quite applicable to other phases?

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