Rene Herse Gravel Myths #1 - Too Much Tyre
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https://www.renehersecycles.com/gravel ... much-tire/
I'm fully on board with fatter tyres (48mm+) are better off-road (speed, comfort, grip), but at their lower pressures the reality is when you get out the saddle and put the power down the bike just doesn't shoot forward like it does with narrower tyres. Surely all these rolling tests overlook this.
How much you loose I don't know, and is the loss worth the other benefits? To me yes, but I'm not racing and pottering about averaging 17-21kph. I imagine this is why top end gravel racers are still on "narrower" tyres, especially given races with lots of accelerations/climbing.
Thoughts?...
I'm fully on board with fatter tyres (48mm+) are better off-road (speed, comfort, grip), but at their lower pressures the reality is when you get out the saddle and put the power down the bike just doesn't shoot forward like it does with narrower tyres. Surely all these rolling tests overlook this.
How much you loose I don't know, and is the loss worth the other benefits? To me yes, but I'm not racing and pottering about averaging 17-21kph. I imagine this is why top end gravel racers are still on "narrower" tyres, especially given races with lots of accelerations/climbing.
Thoughts?...
Here are my useless thoughts.
While it maybe true that a wider 44c or 45c tire maybe faster, but I don't think their test results are good, especially since pro gravel racers are running between 40 and 42c tires with 30 to 40 psi.
Having said that it could be that Rene Herse is more on board with comfort since most readers reading that site are not pro racers, I doubt any pro racers are reading that site, thus the average rider is more in tune to being comfortable when riding, thus a 44 or 45c tire would only need 28 to 35 psi and the ride is more comfortable plus a bit more surefooted in turns which gives the average rider more confidence.
That's just my take on it all. I use to ride fast on gravel roads using smooth treaded 25c tires, of course that was years ago and we've come a long way since then, but the point is, it can be done on narrower tires, and my experience learning how to ride fast on gravel roads with narrower tires was very helpful for building riding skills. Today, now in my mid 60's I think nothing of riding gravel with narrower tires on my road bike, though I now have a touring bike with 38c tires, but I think nothing of riding gravel with those narrower tires on a bike loaded with 60 pounds of gear.
So at the end of the day, you have to do what you're comfortable with doing, if you don't want the harsh ride found with narrower tires on gravel, or you're uncomfortable with how the narrower tires handle on gravel, then go with the wider 44 or 45c tires if they'll fit your bike of course.
While it maybe true that a wider 44c or 45c tire maybe faster, but I don't think their test results are good, especially since pro gravel racers are running between 40 and 42c tires with 30 to 40 psi.
Having said that it could be that Rene Herse is more on board with comfort since most readers reading that site are not pro racers, I doubt any pro racers are reading that site, thus the average rider is more in tune to being comfortable when riding, thus a 44 or 45c tire would only need 28 to 35 psi and the ride is more comfortable plus a bit more surefooted in turns which gives the average rider more confidence.
That's just my take on it all. I use to ride fast on gravel roads using smooth treaded 25c tires, of course that was years ago and we've come a long way since then, but the point is, it can be done on narrower tires, and my experience learning how to ride fast on gravel roads with narrower tires was very helpful for building riding skills. Today, now in my mid 60's I think nothing of riding gravel with narrower tires on my road bike, though I now have a touring bike with 38c tires, but I think nothing of riding gravel with those narrower tires on a bike loaded with 60 pounds of gear.
So at the end of the day, you have to do what you're comfortable with doing, if you don't want the harsh ride found with narrower tires on gravel, or you're uncomfortable with how the narrower tires handle on gravel, then go with the wider 44 or 45c tires if they'll fit your bike of course.
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Another reason why racers don't use fatter tires is probably that they prefer a more "roadie-like" geometry and 2x, in general ... both limit tire width.
It is the usual cherrypicking from Heine - bringing forward only the "facts" that supports the company's stance.
I mean, in a world of new-and-improved the Rene Herse thing is a great tonic and refreshing in its contrast, but the arguments used are sometimes so selective, angled and plain wrong that it is plain silly. For a company having to close the comments of its blog because it was too much "Yeah, but you're wrong", "That's not testing, that's guessing" and "well, it seems that you have overlooked that..."...
I mean, in a world of new-and-improved the Rene Herse thing is a great tonic and refreshing in its contrast, but the arguments used are sometimes so selective, angled and plain wrong that it is plain silly. For a company having to close the comments of its blog because it was too much "Yeah, but you're wrong", "That's not testing, that's guessing" and "well, it seems that you have overlooked that..."...
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Company in releasing research to back up it's own products shocker.
It's no different to a manufacturer claiming their new frame is more aero/compliant/stiff without releasing the full set of data and just cherry picking the most marketable numbers.
It's no different to a manufacturer claiming their new frame is more aero/compliant/stiff without releasing the full set of data and just cherry picking the most marketable numbers.
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Just have to look at how ceramic bearings are advertised to see this in spades.
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a few trials of a 15 second run down test is prototypical Heine, the guy whose theory of planing reported time savings so huge that it would have been the biggest innovation in cycling since the derailleur.
Planing? This isn't a watersport?stevesbike wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:08 pma few trials of a 15 second run down test is prototypical Heine, the guy whose theory of planing reported time savings so huge that it would have been the biggest innovation in cycling since the derailleur.
He ignores aero, which matters even at speeds in the teens when considering these distances.
In his world the ultimate gravel bike would be my 19lb full sus MTB with remote lockouts, but that's too techy so he'd come up with an excuse why a steel touring bike is better.
In his world the ultimate gravel bike would be my 19lb full sus MTB with remote lockouts, but that's too techy so he'd come up with an excuse why a steel touring bike is better.
I googled it ... so he came up with this nebulous concept but 15 years later hasn't come out with a bike to match the theory?RDY wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:15 pmPlaning? This isn't a watersport?stevesbike wrote: ↑Fri Jan 06, 2023 6:08 pma few trials of a 15 second run down test is prototypical Heine, the guy whose theory of planing reported time savings so huge that it would have been the biggest innovation in cycling since the derailleur.
Why make this crap up when he could have just said comfortable is faster.
Jan is a very good salesman. He has some nice ideas, but always remember he is trying to sell his products in the first place.
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It all just depends on the terrain you are riding. If you are constantly riding really rough gravel, singletrack, etc 100% get the widest tire you can fit. If you are riding a mix of smooth gravel and road, then a 30-40mm tire is plenty.
He sells all sizes of tires. Why would he bend the truth to sell larger tires?
I believe Herse based on my personal gravel experience. That is:
I have a really light S-Works Crux with 38mm tires (40mm actual). My buddies bought Salsa Cutthroats which are drop bar mountain bikes with 60-65mm+ tires.
They were faster than I was in practically all of our gravel riding situations. In rocky or sandy sections they would just ride away from me and my 40mm tires. On smooth sections, we'd all be together but if there were occasional sandy sections I'd have to work extra hard to stay with them.
Sometimes, I'd have to walk sections that they could ride through.
I guess my bike would have a small theoretical advantage on climbs.
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Ditto.
Run a couple of gravel races here and we have a regular gravel bunch.
Nothing bigger than 45 and 40 the most common size.
I don't ride much really rough stuff or single track on mine. That is mtb terrain.
Jan Heine sells generally larger sized tyres.
He is trying to sell more.
I would hardly describe him as a useful source of relevant info for racers.
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