Campag 11sp hydro mix-n-match

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carpetrunner
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:45 am

by carpetrunner

Hi Team,

I've been using 10sp Campag levers (Centaur Ultrashift) 2x compact crank, with a 10sp XX SRAM MTB derailleur and Shimano MTB 11-36 cassette for a few years both touring and gravelling - the shifting is surprisingly crisp for a mix that should suffer brand abrasion. The levers are mated to HyRd mechanical/hydro calipers.

I'm now craving fully hydro - I love Campag levers and the availability/ratios/price of Shimano MTB cassettes, I don't care so much about derailleurs - although a clutch would be nice.

Campag 11sp HO levers are around but becoming rare/expensive;
- does anyone know or have experience of using a mongrel derailleur setup that will mate 11HO levers with a Shimano 11sp MTB 11-36 or 11-42 cassette?

Campag 12sp HO levers are easily available and less expensive than 11HO, but I have a heap of 11sp stuff and the thought of changing over to 12sp is doing my head in. Also 12sp Campag derailleurs are not great for the bigger MTB type cassettes - they may push to 11-36 but are unlikely to run 11-42.
- does anyone know or have experience of using a mongrel derailleur setup that will mate 12HO levers with a Shimano 12sp MTB 11-36 or 11-42 cassette?

and I guess I am prepared to run 12spHO levers and only use 11 clicks;
- does anyone know or have experience of using a mongrel derailleur setup that will mate 12HO levers with a Shimano 11sp MTB 11-36 or 11-42 cassette?

Sorry I realise this is complex, thanks for getting this far,
Matthew

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satanas
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:45 pm

by satanas

Best to stick with 11 speed stuff throughout IMHO, or else give up and switch to 12.

The Shiftmate #2 should work in theory - for mixed *12 speed* drivetrains - using a Shimano 2x12 MTB RD:

http://www.jtekengineering.com/shiftmat ... s-choices/

However, wide ratio 12 speed cassettes are few and far between; you can have 11-34 (Shimano road), 11-34 (Campag), 10-36/44/50/52 (AXS), 10-45/51 (Shimano MTB), but there's not much else out there. Sunshine (China) make an 11-42 (cheap, heavy, looks okay), and Ingrid do an 11-44 (light but horribly expensive). There are assorted 40-something tooth MTB cassettes, otherwise there's allegedly an 11-36 105 cassette due eventually. And of course Rotor do 11-36/39/46/52, but they're expensive, some cogs are alu, and I'm not too impressed with the intermediate cog choices. The Sunshine and Ingrid cassettes look viable to me, and eventually there will presumably be 12 speed GRX, but what cassettes might go with that is anyone's guess.

Caveat emptor!

carpetrunner
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:45 am

by carpetrunner

Thanks Sanatas,

I've used a jtek on the 10sp rig in the early days for a centaur long cage and a 11-36 MTB cassette - it does change the shift feel, not so crisp - a bit more lever fiddle if you didn't make a perfectly overshifted swing.

It is much nicer using the SRAM 10sp clutched MTB derailleur with a slightly lower ratio compared to campag 10sp deraillur, and a Shimano MTB cassette with slightly closer cogs - so it all evens out. The SRAM mtb derailleur uses a shaped cable route that changes geometry as you get towards the bigger cogs and the ratio goes up just a little which actually gives a better match to the campag shifters.

There are some guys in the UK that do a "cable fin" to change SRAM derailleur ratios https://ratiotechnology.com/product/cable-fin/
but I can't see one that would do Campag 11sp to Shimano 11sp MTB.

Ingrid have a similar strategy - changing the cable path component to customise their ultra expensive standard derailleur to many different shifters - but not C11 :(

I'm not ready to go to 12sp(yet) - particularly a 10t cog as this means a freehub change and a messy compatibility between my quiver of bikes.

I'm thinking that campag 11sp HO shifters should pull just about the same as most clicks in 10sp campag, and it was only the early 11sp that had a lower pull and different derailleur ratio.

- matthew

satanas
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:45 pm

by satanas

carpetrunner wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:11 am
I'm thinking that campag 11sp HO shifters should pull just about the same as most clicks in 10sp campag, and it was only the early 11sp that had a lower pull and different derailleur ratio.
^ Different ratio to what?!? IIRC, early 11 Ergos (which I had, now replaced by Tiagra 4703 levers and mechs) used the same ratio as 10 speed Campag, then later it was changed somehow. I've no idea what - if anything - either later 11 or 12 speed Campag cable pull is compatible with, that Jtek chart excepted...

As for Shiftmates, I had one in 2015 to try to get Campag Veloce 10 Ergopower levers to work with a Shimano 9 MTB RD and 10 speed HG cassette and chain. It sorta worked, but a couple of times the cam got bumped somehow and rotated so the gears didn't line up; very annoying. I solved that by getting Athena 11 Ergos and using the Hubbub cable routing - worked like a charm. I like Ratio's idea much better!

Ingrid's stuff is too expensive for me to try, but I ordered one of the Sunshine 11-42x12 cassettes to look at (they're cheap), and might end up trying it with something like 42x26/44x28 rings at some point, depending on when/if/what news there is about GRX v2.0 and/or the rumoured 105 mechanical 12 speed stuff.

Best of luck!

carpetrunner
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:45 am

by carpetrunner

UPDATE - on mongrel drivetrains - here are my thoughts so far

10sp: Campag 10sp ergos have differing cable pull over the shift range to take care of different cog spacing and campag deraileur non-linear pull ratios.
SRAM MTB shifters have a constant pull ratio over the range, the non-linearity of the derailleur is compensated with a plastic fin in the cable path of the derailleur.
SRAM MTB 10sp derailleurs have a slightly lower average ratio than Campag 10sp derailleurs, but they run up to 36T, have a clutch and come in 2x10 top jockey wheel position
SRAM/Shimano 10sp MTB cassettes are slightly narrower than Campag 10sp cassettes;
the result is that it all evens out and Campag 10sp ergos work perfectly with SRAM 10sp MTB Derailleur(exact actuation) and SRAM/Shimano 10sp cassettes.
I have done >5000km touring/commuting/gravel and they feel nearly as nice as RecordTi, maybe the lower cable tension of the SRAM MTB derailleur makes the levers pull easier, smoother and kinda more positive.

Campag 11sp ergos came in 2 flavours;
11sp Early
"average" Ergo lever cable pull is pull around 13% higher than C10, the cable tension (derailleur spring) is also much higher than C10,
derailleur ratio is more linear and lower than C10, so the cable pull per click doesn't change as much as C10
C11 cassettes have more constant cog spacing, apart from the 2 smallest. C11 cog spacing and Shimano 11sp MTB cog spacing are close enough to be interchangable.
I haven't found a wider range MTB derailleur with a clutch that comes close to the C11 early ratio - this is probably a lost cause.

11sp Hydro Optimised
"average" Ergo lever cable pull is pull is the same as C10, the cable tension (derailleur spring) is much higher than C10,
derailleur ratio is more linear and lower than C10
SRAM MTB 10sp derailleurs are close eough to be the same as Campag 11sp HO derailleurs, they run up to 36T and have a clutch
The C11 cassette is close enough to Shimano 11sp MTB to be interchangable.
the result is that C11HO Ergo levers look like they work fine with a SRAM 10sp MTB derailleur and Shimano 11sp MTB cassettes
I have tried this on the bench and it wasn't hard to tune - I haven't ridden it in anger yet.
BUT: Shimano 11sp MTB cassettes have a minimum 40t and SRAM 10sp start to struggle at greater than 38t, they will shift to 40t with a heap of B screw, but they don't sound happy.
SRAM 11sp (2x11) MTB derailleurs will run up to 42t but have a lower ratio than C11HO/SRAM10sp - I have not tried this but I do not expect it to work.
Ratio Technologies have a cable fin to convert 11sp MTB derailleur (x-actuation) to 10sp (exact actuation) - I'll order one of these and see what happens.
- matthew

satanas
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:45 pm

by satanas

FWIW, I asked Ratio if the SRAM GX 2x11 MTB RD was compatible with any of their stuff (especially 2x12) and they said no as the cable fin was uniquely shaped and not interchangeable. :-(

Also FWIW: There's a Jtek Shiftmate that's supposed to work with Campag 12 Ergos + Shimano/SRAM 12 MTB RDs + Shimano/SRAM 12 cassettes; I'm considering trying it, but don't have any of the bits - none of which are particularly cheap or easy to get here in Oz.

carpetrunner
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:45 am

by carpetrunner

satanas wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:25 am
FWIW, I asked Ratio if the SRAM GX 2x11 MTB RD was compatible with any of their stuff (especially 2x12) and they said no as the cable fin was uniquely shaped and not interchangeable. :-(

...none of which are particularly cheap or easy to get here in Oz.
And that's if they have any stock :(

I don't have any cable pull data for C12 (yet) but if the shifters are the same width then the index wheel is the same diameter and the total cable pull to get across the cassette is the same. If the C12 cassette centre of cog 1 to centre of cog 12 (I get 38.66) is the same as 11sp centre cog 1 to centre cog 11(I get 38.50) then the derailleur ratio is the same (or pretty close anyway).

It's a long shot but I think C11 and C12 derailleurs may be interchangable (apart from the maximum cog size).

Has anyone tried a C12 derailleur/C11 Ergo or C12 Ergo/C11 derailleur?

On the other hand, I can't see that it would be that hard to 3D print a cable fin for just about any ratio. Sort of a universal derailleur. Build up a git library of cable fins to make a GX derailleur work with any shifter.
It always looks easy when you haven't done it yet. I have access to a good 3D printer and a very skilled mechanical instrument maker - how hard could it be?
- matthew

satanas
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:45 pm

by satanas

"How hard could it be?" Calculating the shape and getting it accurate enough could be a challenge, and in any case I'd rather use a more normal and less obsolete rear derailleur, like say GRX; there's plenty of evidence these can handle 11-42 cassettes and 2x chainrings based on setups for various events seen at bikepacking.com and on YouTube. (There are also the Shimano 2x11 and 2x12 MTB RDs.)

Ratio (unfortunately IMHO) seem to be focussed on 1x, and appear to have little interest in making anything Shimano-compatible so I don't expect much help from there, sadly...

carpetrunner
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:45 am

by carpetrunner

satanas wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:27 pm
"How hard could it be?" Calculating the shape and getting it accurate enough could be a challenge...
This has been a while - but I'm getting there. 3 pieces of 1.6mm alloy a hacksaw and a file.
After playing with a drafing tool for a while to get an "exact" shape that probably wouldn't work due to cable tension and general play in the system,
I transferred an approximate shape to the alloy and cut/filed. It was half a click too short across the cassette on first go,
after an hour or so with a file it appears to index an 11-42 Shimano XT cassette with the Capag 2x11sp HO levers OK on the bench.
I'm yet to give it a solid out of the saddle shifting test as it is pi$$ing down rain here :(
Image
Image

- matthew

satanas
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:45 pm

by satanas

@matthew: Which RD are you using?

Also, elsewhere here somebody has said Ratio have bits to work with Shimano 12 now, and while these are yet to be released they can be ordered directly from Ratio somehow.

carpetrunner
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:45 am

by carpetrunner

@satanas - its an SRAM GX 2x11
Image
https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/rd-gx-11-a1
The important bit is max tooth = 42
originally it shifted X-actuation.
RatioTechnology were not aware of the GX 2x11 derailleur and aren't that interested in Campagnolo 2x11.

- matthew

satanas
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:45 pm

by satanas

I asked Ratio whether that exact GX 2x11 RD was compatible with their 12 speed shifter conversion, or if they had a cable fin to suit and they said no, it couldn't be done. Sigh.

Since those RDs are both hard to come by and quite expensive I'm reluctant to order one on spec, but would like to somehow get 2x12 with 11-42/44 to work. (There are other options like Gevenalle, Microshift bar ends and Ergopower 12 + Shiftmate #2 + SRAMano RD but none are terribly palatable IMO.)

carpetrunner
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:45 am

by carpetrunner

The GX 2x11 derailleur has a different shape fin and it attaches to the derailleur in a different position - Ratio have not designed a fin for the GX 2x11 as they thought it was riveted, and were not aware that the fin had circlips and was replacable.

They also said that "the market" was not interested in 2x drivetrains with mixed brands (Campag shifter/SRAM derailleur).

My next bike will probably be Campagnolo 2x12 - but that's a year away, waiting for Look to release their new Cofdis frame so the 795 blade RS comes down in price :)

- matthew

satanas
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:45 pm

by satanas

Yeah, 1x is trendy. Sigh. I'm not especially keen on mixed brands, but whatever it takes...

by Weenie


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