New powermeter rumours

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RDY
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 7:58 pm
If you could fix the problem with an algorithm, it would have been implemented in firmware…
It'd need comparative data for the riders concerned from a second reliable source, to train it. That can't be implemented in firmware.

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toxin
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Depends what you are doing. For most training its fine for racing if you know how to combine it with feel it can be ok for pacing. Can't reliably use it to compare across activities. I remember very early last year Tao was amazed the peloton was doing 8 w/kg up a 15 min climb when his pm was simply beyond cooked

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13016
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Pretty much nobody at them world tour level (or even high-level amateur) is staring at their computers. They’ll glance down occasionally to confirm their RPE, but banning power meters in racing isn’t going to change anything.

mcjonesy
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:08 pm

by mcjonesy

lukaszzsch wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 1:22 pm
That’s why I have recently heard not to fully believe in after race power readings such as Ganna. This info was given by the person who works for WorldTour team.
Listening Watts Occurring and G's been talking a couple of times with how inaccurate the PM's have been. So they're at least aware of it

Lina
Posts: 1266
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Power meters are a training tool. In a race it doesn't matter what the numbers say, if you can't keep the wheel in front of you your race is often done. And most people with plenty of riding with power meters can pace themselves by RPE pretty damn good.

Also aren't the single sided left crank arm only versions accurate? The problem is the spider, right? The solution could very well be to only run single sided power if they want accurate data. Sure it's single leg power but they'll know if they have any leg imbalances in power.

RDY
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

All the team ones are dual sided ... but they could very well be leaving the DS without battery.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13016
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

RDY wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 10:35 pm
All the team ones are dual sided ... but they could very well be leaving the DS without battery.

Not possible because there is a single rechargeable battery in the spindle. It would be nice if Shimano allowed you to toggle left-only mode in the app, but you can't do that either.

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

There are plenty of situations where a professional rider knows their limits and elect to drop the wheel and ride at their own pace. Many of those times, they catch right back up to the wheel they lost. I bet in those instances a power meter was certainly useful for making that decision. I like data and I don't think they need to outlaw data during a race. I would be interesting what would happen if all computers and radios were banned.

cdncyclist
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:10 am

by cdncyclist

Lina wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:52 pm
Power meters are a training tool. In a race it doesn't matter what the numbers say, if you can't keep the wheel in front of you your race is often done. And most people with plenty of riding with power meters can pace themselves by RPE pretty damn good.

Also aren't the single sided left crank arm only versions accurate? The problem is the spider, right? The solution could very well be to only run single sided power if they want accurate data. Sure it's single leg power but they'll know if they have any leg imbalances in power.
I agree with you re: powermeters as a training tool. Although post race data can be useful.

Does anyone if these teams use different bikes / different powermeters when training? That would seem odd and inconvenient also (and using a different power meter for training than racing doesn't sound like something I would want, never mind a pro team).

I am still left with the question is how the world tour teams manage the dura-ace powermeters and their data for either training or racing?

(and apologies, I realize this is tangential to the thread title / purpose)

jajr1999
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:51 pm

by jajr1999

cdncyclist wrote:
Wed May 22, 2024 3:08 pm
Lina wrote:
Tue May 21, 2024 9:52 pm
Power meters are a training tool. In a race it doesn't matter what the numbers say, if you can't keep the wheel in front of you your race is often done. And most people with plenty of riding with power meters can pace themselves by RPE pretty damn good.

Also aren't the single sided left crank arm only versions accurate? The problem is the spider, right? The solution could very well be to only run single sided power if they want accurate data. Sure it's single leg power but they'll know if they have any leg imbalances in power.
I agree with you re: powermeters as a training tool. Although post race data can be useful.

Does anyone if these teams use different bikes / different powermeters when training? That would seem odd and inconvenient also (and using a different power meter for training than racing doesn't sound like something I would want, never mind a pro team).

I am still left with the question is how the world tour teams manage the dura-ace powermeters and their data for either training or racing?

(and apologies, I realize this is tangential to the thread title / purpose)
I've seen a few Instagram stories of Jayco riders (one I seem to remember was Chris Harper) using an SRM PM. I also remember seeing a cyclist from the same team also with SRM. Some people say that cyclists with PM Shimano use Favero for their training (I don't know if I believe it, but it sounds realistic). And I seem to remember that in the video that Ineos Grenadiers uploaded of Ganna's hour record, one of the bicycles he used to train on the track had SRM.

Disagreeing with some comments, I think that cyclists do look at the watts during the race. Logically they will not do it when two leaders are climbing the last climb at 6.8 W/kg, but they do do it in long stages to calculate their efforts (therefore they not only look at watts, but also kilojoules).

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13016
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Butcher wrote:
Wed May 22, 2024 2:46 pm
There are plenty of situations where a professional rider knows their limits and elect to drop the wheel and ride at their own pace. Many of those times, they catch right back up to the wheel they lost. I bet in those instances a power meter was certainly useful for making that decision. I like data and I don't think they need to outlaw data during a race. I would be interesting what would happen if all computers and radios were banned.

They know their limits based on actual sensations. Staring at a power number is almost always detrimental from a psychological standpoint.

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

I would agree with that too. Sometimes I think I have limited myself because of the numbers. There are plenty of riders that 'think' they can and their meters say no you can't. I suspect the meters usually usually are right.

usr
Posts: 1020
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

I agree with most of the "racers can't stare at watts" arguments, but I think there are very important exceptions: for riders aiming at GC in a mountainous multi-stage race, holding a competitor's wheel is always optional. They certainly can go by "If you want to burn up your legs today, be my guest, I'll stick to my watts"

wickedstealthy
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:16 pm

by wickedstealthy

EvilEuro wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:51 pm
jever98 wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:08 pm
Power2max have been bullet proof and affordable for years. Work with all pedals, too. :)
True, and I have used a P2M Campagnolo PM for years now with zero issues. I also have a set of Garmin Rally pedals and they track exactly in-line with my P2M. I don't use the Garmin anymore as I prefer Time pedals.

However, if you're married to a particular crankset and/or want dual-sided power measurements, pedals are the only way to go right now. That is unless you want only a Shimano crankset, in which case Stages now has a viable offering.
Dont use anything then p2max. Dual sided reading is useless. Anyone has a small difference and only when you are injured I could prove valuable for a while.
I have a type s, ngeco and 2 ng. The first is 9y, second 5y and they still read exactly the same as day one and in line with the newest. They are bombproof

Torbjorn
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:44 pm

by Torbjorn

Glad you're happy with your power meter, but the fanboy vibe is strong.

Btw, dual-sided measurement really informed me over several years when I was battling different injuries, confirming muscle strength imbalances between the two legs - and more importantly - confirming that it was back in balance following gym work. I wouldn't want a PM in the future not informing me of any developments in leg strength imbalance.

by Weenie


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