Back to mechanical shifting and rim brakes: My journey

[eli76141]

Hello fellow weenies!

(This is a long read. You have been warned!)

Love your journey. And I couldn't agree more. I also feel slower on my disc bike than my rim bike. And riding the disc bike with electronic shifting feels more like piloting a space ship than riding a bike. But I do enjoy the wider tires though. If rim bikes had the option for wider tires, I would probably sell my disc bike.

[Nickldn]

Unsurprisingly this thread is mostly a combination of nostalgia and a bit of a whinge about technological change.

I have thousands of miles on top notch rim and disk kit, electronic shifting and until recently also Campy mechanical.

Would echo many posters' comments about electronic shifting just being superior. Yes mechanical is nice, but I would not buy a bike with a mechanical groupset now.

As for enjoying rim more than disk, yes I can also sympathise with the views rim bikes are more "fun" and provide superior feel of the road. I enjoy a 20-25 mile ride on good roads with my Propel, it's responsive and the 25mm Vittoria tubs provide lots of road feel. But would I choose it for an all day ride, or a hundred miler? No way, it's much more tiring after a few hours in the saddle.

I choose the SL8 for longer rides, it's a great bike. Light and responsive, but also very smooth and with all day comfort. Such a huge step forward for today's crap roads. The handing is still sharp even with wider tyres so it's fun to ride.

I used to enjoy my old Sigma race bike with 22mm tubs and excellent road feel, but it was bone jarring and the roads were better back then too. I would not go back.

As for disks being complex to work on, I haven't found that. It's a learning curve sure, but I can't describe it as hard. Besides rim brakes can be fiddly to tune too.

I used to think it was the dark side, but I have learnt to love the disk. If you don't get a SL8, it'll change your mind.

[cheapvega]

IDK man, a mechanical rim groupset + cable disc brakes kind of avoid all the hassles of the latest tech while getting most of the benefits of disc brakes. Even if you don't do a lot of braking heavy rides the feel and power of disc brakes is nice, as is the added comfort from the ability to run much wider rims/tires. At this point rim brake is all about low price and old school feel.

Reminds me of the manual vs automatic debate, or more esoterically, the DSLR vs mirrorless debate. New tech always sucks at the beginning but if it gets time to mature it can eventually get better.

[wheelbuilder]

Guess because I own them I should also be heard. I loved Sram Red 10spd, Red 22, 11 speed etap, etap axs, and now axs e1. Would NEVER choose mechanical Red again. Shifting is so much better with electronic. This includes Di2 as I've ridden (not owned) every iteration of Di2 from external battery era.
That said, I much prefer rim to disc. Not because it performs better cause it doesn't. I prefer the aeshetic of rim, and the feeling a rim frame imparts. I've ridden lots of disc frames and the feel stiff and prone to understeer imo. I am a confident enough descender to literally not care that much about braking.
Did I say I can't stand the way a disc brake wheel looks?

[DHG01]

Hello fellow weenies!

Great story; thank you for sharing.
I am fundamentally in the same camp as you.

No complaints on 12s Di2, but I just rather the feeling of mechanical shifting. I also thought DA and Campy were a bit quicker than their electronic siblings (not that it matters much).

Not so sure on Red 22 - on some bikes, I love the mechanical touch during shifting; but on other setups, it has felt plasticy; like if the connection between shifters and derailleurs lost effectiveness.

On braking...so much has been said. To me, the bike feels more controlled and planted when braking from the outer diameter of the wheel with equal strength on both sides of the wheel.

What I will say is that the breaking performance and experience you get from discs is more standardized. Overall, disc brakes do their job and squeak when wet; be 11s Red/Ultegra or 12s DA (I ve perhaps perceive Ekar/Campy a bit better).

On rim, experience can vary. DA + certain wheels (3T, Enve gen 2) is really difficult to beat. Renting bikes on 10/11 s Rival/105 on aluminum rims (Mavic Aksium were ones I recall) - I ve found very poor braking performance for a gradient-6% onwards; even on dry.

Now, discs allows for clinchers. A lot of progress has been made there. I am fundamentally on tubulars (good ones); but the performance from some of the clincher tyres is really interesting.

[DHG01]

How do you guys go with carbon wheels and wet braking though?
I have 3 sets of rim brake carbon wheels. Yes they stop when it is wet. Is it as predictable and immediately effective when the lever is squeezed in the wet?
Way more ks on rim brake and I now avoid the rain if I can, but pretty quickly evident disc works much better.

Yes more work setting them up and yes a little heavier so no, not all positive.

I can definitely see the benefits of discs on the wet for commuters.

I am quite amazed with the wet riding thing; I actually do ride when wet and see so few riders around.

For road rides I rather rim brake - the brake absolutely fine; not at all better than discs and really depends the specific setup; non Gen2 Enves are dangerous in the wet. But Gen2, DA 9200, etc are fine.

The reason why I choose rim is the tubular. It seems 25/28 mm decent tubulars (eg Corsa) are pretty unlikely to puncture - I have quite a few as spares that have worn out without sealant in them. And when they do puncture, fixing is so easy and quick with sealant and a mini electrical pump.

I am not as experienced on road disc set ups; but thinking of changing the inner tube of the Knot 64s in the wet seems like such a pita.

Edit - to one of your points, I am concerned with scratching and wearing out brake tracks. So I try to concentrate wet riding on the same rims.

[DHG01]

Unsurprisingly this thread is mostly a combination of nostalgia and a bit of a whinge about technological change.

I have thousands of miles on top notch rim and disk kit, electronic shifting and until recently also Campy mechanical.

Would echo many posters' comments about electronic shifting just being superior. Yes mechanical is nice, but I would not buy a bike with a mechanical groupset now.

As for enjoying rim more than disk, yes I can also sympathise with the views rim bikes are more "fun" and provide superior feel of the road. I enjoy a 20-25 mile ride on good roads with my Propel, it's responsive and the 25mm Vittoria tubs provide lots of road feel. But would I choose it for an all day ride, or a hundred miler? No way, it's much more tiring after a few hours in the saddle.

I choose the SL8 for longer rides, it's a great bike. Light and responsive, but also very smooth and with all day comfort. Such a huge step forward for today's crap roads. The handing is still sharp even with wider tyres so it's fun to ride.

I used to enjoy my old Sigma race bike with 22mm tubs and excellent road feel, but it was bone jarring and the roads were better back then too. I would not go back.

As for disks being complex to work on, I haven't found that. It's a learning curve sure, but I can't describe it as hard. Besides rim brakes can be fiddly to tune too.

I used to think it was the dark side, but I have learnt to love the disk. If you don't get a SL8, it'll change your mind.

I actually think Corsa 25mm, Veloflex 28 mm feel quite comfortable and allow for a very wide range of pressures for different road conditions. Not at all saying 30 mm will not be more comfortable, if that is your choice.

Are some of the benefits you mention more relative to Propel vs SL8 than electronic vs mechanical or rim vs disc?

22 mm tubs are quite difficult to find these days. On smooth roads, 21.5 mm Gommitalias with latex inner tubes, are super smooth; no road feel at all. They obviously do not have the versatility nor suspension capacity of a 28mm for poor roads.

Versatility is probably one of the benefits of discs.

[razorree]

I switched recently to a bike with R8000 Ultegra for a moment (from Di2), works well however for high-intensity intervals Di2 is nice, quick effortles gear changes are nice (if it's worth price difference? up to you ).
also I have dura-ace dual-pivot rim brakes (and you can even put 28mm tire which measures ~30mm on 21mm rim), and initial grab is stronger than Ultegra R8170 (I ride mostly in dry conditions), however hydraulic brakes have better modulation of course.

So at the end I'd say that there is nothing wrong with rim brakes and mech shifting

[biceryder]

First, love this thread. Second, I did something simliar last October with a twist.

I picked up a Tarmac 2009-2010 Saxo-Bank frame in like new immaculate condition for a few bucks. Plan was to do a budget build training bike dedicated for the turbo during winter months. Ended up doing 105, Ultegra brakes, and a 2nd hand pair of carbon Hunts. Rode it around the block a few times, matched my fit to my aero bike with Di2 and disc. Ended up riding it for a few months off the trainer. Really enjoyed the bike.

May of this year I upgraded the groupset from 105 to Wheeltop EDS, added some carbon cranks and I have been having a blast. Now I have the percision and convience of electronic shifting with the simplicity of rim brakes.

Not saying rim is better than disc, its just a lot simpler for airline travel and if your routes don't involve long mountain descents they are generally good. For competitve rides, in the mountains or wet, I'm riding on disc brakes. Bottomline, its been fun and relatively inexpensive to build up an older rim brake bike.

[gurk700]

If you aren't performance oriented, can't learn / don't want to learn how to bleed brakes or align rotors (Gotta do this what? twice a year?), don't live in a hilly area where you climb / descend 1000ft per 10 mile pretty much any route you select, love aluminum wheels or will use something like HED, mavic and alike (carbon wheel with alu brake track) all the more power to you!

Everybody else, I have switched back and forth many times. There's no way in hell my main bike won't be a disc brake at the moment. I wouldn't mind another SL6 ultralight rim brake for sentimental reasons.

[bikerdan]

If you aren't performance oriented, can't learn / don't want to learn how to bleed brakes or align rotors (Gotta do this what? twice a year?)

Agree with this...if you have a good setup there is little to do. As always get good tools, experiment and learn

I switched over from rim last autumn. Was happy with my bike, Look 695...Superlight, agile and fast....but I felt like with rim brake my options for upgrades was dying out. Something that I've always enjoyed doing. Switched to a Look 785 and it's also light, not so agile and fast but doesn't feel it so much..but the ride is way better

I was happily surprised how much I've liked discs this time round as my only other road disc was a Cannondale Alu 105 disc I brought specifically for running in the wet, full mudguards etc. Thing is a tank and did the job...also where my learning curve on discs started

At the end of the day doesn't matter what you're riding as long as you are and you're enjoying it.

[jeanjacques]

If you aren't performance oriented, can't learn / don't want to learn how to bleed brakes or align rotors (Gotta do this what? twice a year?), don't live in a hilly area where you climb / descend 1000ft per 10 mile pretty much any route you select(...)
Everybody else, I have switched back and forth many times.

This forum doesn't represent the real life, I live in the Pyrénées mountains (col de Spandelles, Marie Blanque, Soulor, Aubisque are my backyard), half the riders still on rim brake because there is any problem here with it whatever the weather. You say the OP doesn't learn disc but we can return the compliment, maybe you don't know how to handle a rim brake bike ?

Simply keep both rim brake and disc brake bikes for different situations.

+1. I like my disc bike but yes the ride is a lot more muted than my rim brake. No problem when you climb for 1h but on a competitive ride or just hilly ride, the feeling of the rim brake put a smile on my face and I want to push harder. Same speed with both, just not the same purpose. I learned to like the relaxing ride with the disc bike, when I'm tired it's the bike I choose or when I just want to enjoy the landscape, spend long hours, etc. Not really weather related, rim brake bike is a lot easier to clean after a rainy day.

And yes I do all the maintenance on both bike, no problem with it but it's a truism to say the disc bike is more complicated to maintain and learn.

[nickf]

I have been back and forth on building up a new wonderbike. I just can't seem to honestly see the cost benefit. I have access to pretty good deals on an SL8 and Factor Ostro, I can get parts near cost. I can probably build up either for around $8k with E1 red, much cheaper than their MSRP of $11k++. I am convinced I will build it up and just be disappointed. Those bikes won't make me faster, I'm not going on 40kph solo breakaways. I DO NOT ride even if there is a slight chance of rain, so braking performance between disc and rim is not even a factor. It's purely curiosity and some bike lust. I have a disc gravel bike, it stops just fine. Plus it can fit 45c tires. My #1 road bike in the fleet is a steel English with the biggest tubes he had on hand. T47, 44mm head tubs, 44mm down tube, max chain stays, rim brake, 11 speed Etap. The bike is every bit as responsive as my old 2015 Supersix EVO HM. The Etap11 speed has excellent shaped hoods, no firmware updates needed, and is a cinch to work on. I even converted my English V3 from red22 mechanical to 11 speed Etap.

Maybe one day I will test ride a new wonder bike but until then I am just not convinced it will do anything worth $8k+ better than my current bike.

[rollinslow]

I have been back and forth on building up a new wonderbike. I just can't seem to honestly see the cost benefit. I have access to pretty good deals on an SL8 and Factor Ostro, I can get parts near cost. I can probably build up either for around $8k with E1 red, much cheaper than their MSRP of $11k++. I am convinced I will build it up and just be disappointed. Those bikes won't make me faster, I'm not going on 40kph solo breakaways. I DO NOT ride even if there is a slight chance of rain, so braking performance between disc and rim is not even a factor. It's purely curiosity and some bike lust. I have a disc gravel bike, it stops just fine. Plus it can fit 45c tires. My #1 road bike in the fleet is a steel English with the biggest tubes he had on hand. T47, 44mm head tubs, 44mm down tube, max chain stays, rim brake, 11 speed Etap. The bike is every bit as responsive as my old 2015 Supersix EVO HM. The Etap11 speed has excellent shaped hoods, no firmware updates needed, and is a cinch to work on. I even converted my English V3 from red22 mechanical to 11 speed Etap.

Maybe one day I will test ride a new wonder bike but until then I am just not convinced it will do anything worth $8k+ better than my current bike.

Point appreciated. If you go from the Steel English to an SL8 it will be a massive differene on the first ride. The stiffness, aero, dampening, etc is just that appreciable. I came from 2 Ti bikes prior to my S-Works SL8. I think it is fair to say that the leap from the prior SL gens to the SL8 has been quite substantial. They finally have a low-weight, high tolerance disc frame that is very aero. I rolled the dice and sold my custom Mosaic GT1 to raise the funds for the SL8. The only regret is that I wish I had done that sooner. The Moots on the other hand is the best mech/rim/metal bike i have ever ridden and I hope to always have, particularly for travel.

[gurk700]

This forum doesn't represent the real life, I live in the Pyrénées mountains (col de Spandelles, Marie Blanque, Soulor, Aubisque are my backyard), half the riders still on rim brake because there is any problem here with it whatever the weather. You say the OP doesn't learn disc but we can return the compliment, maybe you don't know how to handle a rim brake bike ?

My receipts are in my signature.

I've ridden rim brakes for years going down 20% hills. To be able to handle versus being able to go down faster, not wearing your rims, BETTER PERFORMANCE are two different things.
I was visiting Swiss alps just a couple weeks ago. It was hailing and freezing temperatures. I had to rush down the hill, get my friend's car, drive it up the pass, rescue my friend cause he was on a rim brake bike that literally stopped braking (carbon wheels). He has ridden rim brakes all his life. Literally bought a disc brake bike a week after.

It's all what you wanna do. I don't wanna be limited with weather, wheel choice, etc. So I stopped riding rim brake bikes. You can tell everyone "iF PrOs DiD It WhY CaN'T You?" The answer is:
1 - Pros are better than anyone who posts on this forum.
2 - We don't get closed 2 lane roads.
3 - We don't have amazing insurance / team that will pay any damage done to our bodies
4 - We don't get ride cancelled because of dangerous riding conditions. We just get stuck.