Train descent skills

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LeDuke
Posts: 2053
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:39 am
Location: Front Range, CO

by LeDuke

Lean the bike, not so much the body.

Point your hips where you want the bike to go.


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by Weenie


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Sub2
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2023 4:50 pm

by Sub2

LeDuke wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:16 am
Lean the bike, not so much the body.
Isn't it the opposite of this that GP / motor bike racers do , ie, hang off the bike to lower the cg and keep the bike more vertical ?
Maybe the geo forces are different for push bikes , I dunno 🤷‍♂️

NickB
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 11:13 am

by NickB

Requiem84 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:36 pm
T
- Not looking far enough ahead, not looking enough into the corner / where you want to go. Practice this. Watch much further ahead when downhilling. Will make it feel that everything goes slower. When you enter the corner, force yourself to look into the exit. You will automatically go in that direction.
motorbike riding.
THIS! It's exactly why town drivers cannot stay on right side of white lines in the country and keep braking. Look furher ahead. The motorcyle road racers call it the 1000 yard stare. (1000 meter if you like)

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13060
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Sub2 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:22 pm
LeDuke wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 4:16 am
Lean the bike, not so much the body.
Isn't it the opposite of this that GP / motor bike racers do , ie, hang off the bike to lower the cg and keep the bike more vertical ?
Maybe the geo forces are different for push bikes , I dunno 🤷‍♂️

They’re not trying to keep the bike more vertical. They have to fight the 160kg bike trying to right itself at those speeds.

usr
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2024 2:21 am
You’ll know when you need to drop the outside foot. It’s not just for hairpins but railing sweepers at very high speeds. Standing on the outside foot is more of a trick to hang your butt slightly off the outside of the saddle rather than “putting weight on the pedals.”
Saddle pressing sideways into to upper thigh, that's the way. Had the seat a few millimeters higher than usual last week in the Pyrenees and the turn disconnect between seat and butt required excessive ankle pointing with the crank vertical. Rode most turns crank horizontal and that felt so wrong that i even started doing the "not looking far enough into the corner" thing. That had always been something i could not understand because i never failed to do it, until now. Now that I do fail, unless consciously forcing myself, I have to agree that it's very helpful advice.

As for "weight on the pedals”, I read that as allowing the bike to freely bop up and down with the road surface, without forcing those changes in attitude onto the rider mass.

mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue May 16, 2023 3:08 pm
Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

usr wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:01 pm
How much road crashing experience in those 2.5 years? Wouldn't be surprised if most never fully recover in their rule#64 cycles.
One decent one of my own doing. Took a while to put full trust in loading up the bike in a fast corner again.

I was still descending faster everyone around me during this time of taking it easy to be fair :lol:

pushpush
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:10 am

by pushpush

Visually spot as far ahead as you can. Have a line in mind and specifically know where your exit marker is so you can track to it. How deep into the corner can you see without running out of room? This makes it easier to manage how much corner you yield and minimize overshooting. This matters less on a track, and a LOT in the real world with cars. Double apexes that you can't see are another animal, focus on singles first.

Pick a local-to-you descent with a challenging set of corners that you like. Do it over and over. Whittle away at your time. This is a good way to hone skills and build trust in your bike/tires/skills. That confidence will translate to how you ride everywhere.

Pedal through as much corner as you can. If you can't pedal, level your pedals and maintain a ready-to-pedal stance through both feet. This reduces your cda to help maintain speed and readies for pedaling again at the earliest possible moment. The ability to maintain or even gain exit speed and carry it into the following section is an enormous boost.

Specifically for road riding.... Plan for the worst. Find an old road or parking lot with some sand and loose dirt in it. Practice weaving around and stopping. Sand and grit and debris like to collect on the center line of many roads. Having confidence to ride through it translates directly to your confidence to recover as you run wide and approach the center line of a road. Everyone has blown a corner once in a while. It happens when you go fast. Drill those recovery skills periodically.

SaladhOlivier
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:39 pm

by SaladhOlivier

Could anyone please expand on cornering long switch backs? It seems I always start turning early than necessary and then I have compensate that by widening my line and then turn again.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13060
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

SaladhOlivier wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:12 am
Could anyone please expand on cornering long switch backs? It seems I always start turning early than necessary and then I have compensate that by widening my line and then turn again.

Brake late, apex late, take a parabolic exit.

Requiem84
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:07 pm

by Requiem84

SaladhOlivier wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:12 am
Could anyone please expand on cornering long switch backs? It seems I always start turning early than necessary and then I have compensate that by widening my line and then turn again.
Focus on left hand hairpins first, easier to practice. Aim is to use as much road as you can on the outside (right side). Every time you re-do the same/similar corner try to turn in a bit later. When you turn in, move your head to the left (excessively) to see where you would like to end up at the exit. Ideally your entry is late enough for you to have a lot of flexibility towards the apex. In the sense that you should be able to tighten your line if needed, or run a bit wider if needed.

jfranci3
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

I can't decend because I live in the flattest place on earth. Having said that:

1) the OP mentioned video games for understanding "cornering" concepts. Video games are great, but they (and photos too) absolutely suck for representing how a real world corner looks and feels. The real world corner has bad spots, a poorly defined edge, a crown in the middle, two grooves in each lane, oil spots..... how you would approach a given corners in a video game looks a lot more like how the race driving 101 says to do it than how you would in real life. Watch any video of the Nurburgring, and you'll see how you approach a given road in real life differs from theory/games - the real car is in the center of the track a lot more than you would think.

2) Circuit driving (repeated loops of a short course) is different than non-circuit. You can really refine an approach to a given corner more as there not any risk of the geometry or conditions not being as you expect. You can't fully commmit on a road like you would on a track.

3) Never go faster than you feel comfortable. That thing holding you back is right. It's a tool you can use on a circuit to think of a corner as "turn 11 is a gut+2" for a corner that's faster than it looks. Outside of a track that you're lapping, your gut or gut-1 is your limit. You can never be comfortable of the exacting geometry of conditions of a corner you haven't seen or haven't seen in the past 30min.

4) You don't feel like you can go faster because you can't go faster. Something is reigning in your confidence or giving you bad info in your feedback loop. If your case had extremely vague steering feel, you wouldn't feel comfortable going fast. On the bike, that could be your weight distribution, you've got too many spacers making your steerer tube flexy, you're not look up and past the person ahead of you, experience....

MarkMcM
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

repoman wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:35 pm

So under the hardest braking, only the front brake should be used.

This seems crazy and a great way to flip over the bars!
You have to use both. Shift your weight back behind the saddle and get low if you need to brake irregularly hard and brake in a straight line before the corner.
The forward weight shift for any given deceleration rate is the same, regardless of which brake is being used. Which means that the harder you are braking, the less traction the rear wheel has, and the more likely for the rear tire to skid. The upshot is that the maximum braking rate (without control loss) using both brakes equally is less than the maximum brake rate of using the front brake only. So if you want to use both brakes equally, you'll have to learn to live with a lower deceleration rate.
Last edited by MarkMcM on Mon Jun 24, 2024 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MarkMcM
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

pushpush wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2024 2:08 am
Visually spot as far ahead as you can. Have a line in mind and specifically know where your exit marker is so you can track to it. How deep into the corner can you see without running out of room? This makes it easier to manage how much corner you yield and minimize overshooting. This matters less on a track, and a LOT in the real world with cars. Double apexes that you can't see are another animal, focus on singles first.
^^^ This. Looking ahead and planning your turn is key. The turn doesn't start when you steer the front wheel into the turn - the turn should start as the rider approaches the turn, assesses the turn shape (including road contours, pavement changes, etc.), visualizes their path through the turn, and lines up their position on the road to to enter the turn on the correct path (typically on the outside edge of the turn). Too many people just barrel toward a turn, without planning it out in their mind before they enter the turn, and then as they approach the turn they realize they're on a bad trajectory, and then slam on their brakes and and come to a near stop. A well planned turn has a smooth flow and requires a minimum of slowing.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13060
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MarkMcM wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2024 4:44 pm
repoman wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:35 pm

So under the hardest braking, only the front brake should be used.

This seems crazy and a great way to flip over the bars!
You have to use both. Shift your weight back behind the saddle and get low if you need to brake irregularly hard and brake in a straight line before the corner.
The forward weight shift for any given deceleration rate is the same, regardless of which brake is being used. Which means that the harder you are braking, the less traction the rear wheel has, and the more likely for the rear tire to skid. The upshot is that the maximum braking rate (without control loss) using both brakes equally is less than the maximum brake rate of using the front brake only. So if you want to use both brakes equally, you'll have to learn to live with a lower deceleration rate.

No one said to use both brakes equally. He is correct that under no practical circumstances should only the front brake be used.

MarkMcM
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2024 5:28 pm
No one said to use both brakes equally. He is correct that under no practical circumstances should only the front brake be used.
https://www.renehersecycles.com/how-to- ... a-bicycle/
Front vs. Rear Brake

On dry pavement, the front brake alone halts the bike over the shortest distance. Many riders think they need both brakes to stop effectively. (Most bikes are outfitted with two brakes and that implies that one should use both.) Here’s the way to think about it: the momentum of your body continues to move forward as your bike is slowing down, so your weight shifts forward. That’s why your rear wheel can come off the ground when braking hard. When your weight comes forward during hard braking, your rear wheel has almost zero traction. If you apply the rear brake under these conditions, the rear wheel will lock up without contributing significantly to the braking effort.

If you can apply the rear brake without locking up the rear wheel, then your weight isn’t shifting forward – you aren’t braking as hard as you should!

We tried braking with both brakes and with the front brake alone, and consistently found that if we focused all our attention on the front brake, we achieved much shorter stopping distances.

by Weenie


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