Can someone describe the "modern" road bike fit?

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apr46
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

@ajs914. Old picture of Pogacar, Thomas on rim brakes...I think your google fu might be off today.

Here is an instagram post of the TooT Asha RR on a road bike used in a road race where UCI rules are followed. The rider won that race and seems to have won quite a bit recently after a dry spell. Not at the WT level, but still interesting.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C7t9k9AoNbw ... A3NXZ6ZTV6

I think the narrow bars conversation is related but slightly different topic to this one and I am less sure that the TooT bars have it completely right with that much rise and reach built in; but its a brave design.

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Jaisen
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

AJS914 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:47 pm
Are those bars legal anywhere besides fixie racing?

Image
A perfect example of bars too narrow. Look at those elbows flare out. Both Toot riders in fact. Dylan Johnson made a video about this recently where he tested various bars at the wind tunnel. The discussion about narrow/aero bars starts around the 21 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3yspNTvVPo

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13006
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Jaisen wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:58 am
AJS914 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:47 pm
Are those bars legal anywhere besides fixie racing?

Image
A perfect example of bars too narrow. Look at those elbows flare out. Both Toot riders in fact. Dylan Johnson made a video about this recently where he tested various bars at the wind tunnel. The discussion about narrow/aero bars starts around the 21 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3yspNTvVPo

Dude, he’s attacking while out of the saddle.

Funny you mention the DJ / Silca vids. The TooT track bar tested fastest.

warthog101
Posts: 970
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

AJS914 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:47 pm
Are those bars legal anywhere besides fixie racing?

Image
:shock:
I hope they are banned. Just looks sooo ridiculous! :lol:

Jaisen
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:16 am
Jaisen wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:58 am
AJS914 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:47 pm
Are those bars legal anywhere besides fixie racing?

Image
A perfect example of bars too narrow. Look at those elbows flare out. Both Toot riders in fact. Dylan Johnson made a video about this recently where he tested various bars at the wind tunnel. The discussion about narrow/aero bars starts around the 21 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3yspNTvVPo

Dude, he’s attacking while out of the saddle.

Funny you mention the DJ / Silca vids. The TooT track bar tested fastest.
They did test fastest but DJ mentioned he focused on keeping the tuck during the test. It isn't clear he could hold it comfortably for long rides, which is why he opted for the 35cm bars. The narrow bars can work great for some individuals, no doubt about it, but for many they will experience the elbow flare, which will negate all the advantages of the narrow bars sacrificing comfort along the way.

Also, you are right in the picture there is an out of saddle attack, but I am just calling attention to the fact that if people are serious about aero gains and not just style/trendy points, they should make sure they can comfortably maintain aero positions on narrow bars, which might not always be easy or possible.

dsveddy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:56 pm

by dsveddy

Jaisen wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:58 am
A perfect example of bars too narrow. Look at those elbows flare out. Both Toot riders in fact. Dylan Johnson made a video about this recently where he tested various bars at the wind tunnel. The discussion about narrow/aero bars starts around the 21 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3yspNTvVPo
The elbow-flare-out issue with narrow bars can be fixed with more reach IMO. I know I just got flayed here for claiming reach is important for breathing, but in my experience running bars too narrow + too little reach means the upper-arm angle is too steep, so that when I'm trying to keep my elbows/forearms tucked it feels like my upper arms are pushing against my chest and I'm working against the natural flexibility of my shoulders, which then leads me to chicken-wing my elbows out instead of keeping them tucked. Which is why I say extending reach and increasing stack when decreasing width of bars (in my experience) to push those arms forward is important for "breathing"--perhaps it would have been better of me to say "comfort"--when sustaining the ideal position. For whatever reason, it feels easier to hold a narrower arm and shoulder position when the upper-arms are extendend further forward.

apr46
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

In addition to reach, I think shape is a really big contributor as well. Too much flare leads to chicken wings. I also think outsweep can contribute too, and I am personally more sensitive to outsweep vs. flare. This is where I think the original Enve design for their flared aero bar was brilliant, as its all flare and no outsweep. If only they made narrower options...

To state the obvious you can see chicken winging happen on more traditional bar widths as well, its just not quite as obvious.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13006
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

apr46 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:11 pm
In addition to reach, I think shape is a really big contributor as well. Too much flare leads to chicken wings. I also think outsweep can contribute too, and I am personally more sensitive to outsweep vs. flare. This is where I think the original Enve design for their flared aero bar was brilliant, as its all flare and no outsweep. If only they made narrower options...

To state the obvious you can see chicken winging happen on more traditional bar widths as well, its just not quite as obvious.

Depends on the person. My wrists easily pronate more than 45 degrees. Flare doesn’t make my elbows poke out at all.

apr46
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

Yeah, it for sure would be dependent on the person...just like how we had preferences for "normal" width bars as well. I think my arms rotate out naturally. I think I start to see my elbow move at around 30 degrees or so. But even curling my hand in 1cm when they are spaced 200mm apart, I can see movement. The further the extension the less that movement is.

TLDR agree its dependent, not sure if it's more or less with a narrower bar.

rhs2z
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:15 pm

by rhs2z

dsveddy wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:48 pm

The elbow-flare-out issue with narrow bars can be fixed with more reach IMO. I know I just got flayed here for claiming reach is important for breathing, but in my experience running bars too narrow + too little reach means the upper-arm angle is too steep, so that when I'm trying to keep my elbows/forearms tucked it feels like my upper arms are pushing against my chest and I'm working against the natural flexibility of my shoulders, which then leads me to chicken-wing my elbows out instead of keeping them tucked. Which is why I say extending reach and increasing stack when decreasing width of bars (in my experience) to push those arms forward is important for "breathing"--perhaps it would have been better of me to say "comfort"--when sustaining the ideal position. For whatever reason, it feels easier to hold a narrower arm and shoulder position when the upper-arms are extendend further forward.
This has been my experience as well. With a shorter reach, there just is not enough room for me to tuck my arms in without flaring elbows. I already use a 140mm stem, which works well. But now I'm going to try switching from ornix to toot to get even more reach.

DJT21
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:35 pm

by DJT21

Niki Terpstra was riding in this position a decade ago. I don't think it's a philosophy as such though, it's just what works for each individual (the two most succesful riders of recent times (Froome and Pogacar) both look really awkward on a bike). Tall with long limbs/short torso might mean a further forward saddle works best.
If you're riding around with a tall stack of stem spacers, there's no harm in removing them and dropping your saddle 20mm - see what happens. I feel the extreme forward/low position gives better engagement of the glutes, whilst quads feel much less fatigued.

bobones
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

DJT21 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:27 pm
Niki Terpstra was riding in this position a decade ago.
I guess this photo of Tepstra's Venge from 2015 proves your point!

nikiterpstra-venge-2015.jpg
DJT21 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:27 pm
I don't think it's a philosophy as such though, it's just what works for each individual (the two most succesful riders of recent times (Froome and Pogacar) both look really awkward on a bike). Tall with long limbs/short torso might mean a further forward saddle works best.
If you're riding around with a tall stack of stem spacers, there's no harm in removing them and dropping your saddle 20mm - see what happens. I feel the extreme forward/low position gives better engagement of the glutes, whilst quads feel much less fatigued.
I have long limbs and short torso and use a setback seatpost with a high, level saddle, well back on its rails. I don't have enough bar/shifter reach to rest my forearms on the bars, so a true sphynx position is really not on for me. I have tried a lower, forward saddle, but I don't get on with it. Perhaps higher bars with a longer stem and more reach to the shifters would make this positon workable for me. I don't race, so it's not that important, but everyone wants to go faster for the same watts!

repoman
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2024 3:28 pm

by repoman

bobones wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:31 pm
DJT21 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:27 pm
Niki Terpstra was riding in this position a decade ago.
I guess this photo of Tepstra's Venge from 2015 proves your point!


nikiterpstra-venge-2015.jpg

This has been my position since then (or before)...it came out of seeking the most comfortable position believe it or not (complete with slammed rear cleats). I would always completely negate knee pain in this position and it would allow me to actually use my quads, before that my hamstrings became far more developed than my quads.

Adam Hansen was doing this (undersize the frame, jack seatpost, long stem, slam saddle forward, slam cleats rear) for a long time.
Going to a smaller frame has a number of advantages, lighter, stiffer, potentially more aero, shorter wheelbase so it's more nimble, long stem dials out the twitchiness and the bike becomes more reactive to body positioning.
Image

I think the flared elbow thing with skinny bars is just a matter of training. If it's more advantageous, just being cognizant of if you are flaring your elbows or not is something you can train in your head.

EugeneC
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:08 pm

by EugeneC

The way I see it, this particular fit is a trend, like so many other trends before. The goal is to have a position as close to a TT bike as possible - to bee as aero as possible, but still be able to put out maximum watts.

Terpstras and Hansens positions are not the same as this current trend. They were aiming at having as low a front end as posible to be as low as possible, and doing so with small frames and long slammed stems. But there was a price to be paid, they didn't put out as many watts. My understanding is, that the current trend is not aiming towards that. It's seems to be the opposite, but aiming at the same goal, being as aero as possible and putting out a lot of watts.

I know two guys who have taking this current trend all the way. They are both riding at pro level, and they are racing all over Europe. I asked them what the filosify behind the fit is. They both ride frames bigger than their normal fit, with lots of spacers, long stems and very narrow handlebars. Their position mimicks the current pro riders TT position. Not as extreme as Van Ship, but not far from it either. The reason for the bigger frame is having fewer spacers under the stem and having a longer front end. Also they want to have there forarms point upwards like a TT bike position, rather than having the sphinx position with horizontal forarms. One of them is 195 cm. He rides a 62 frame with 170 mm stem. It looks crazy, but apparently it works. Personally I'm not a big fan of this, but if it works it works.

dsveddy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:56 pm

by dsveddy

EugeneC wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:17 pm
The way I see it, this particular fit is a trend, like so many other trends before. The goal is to have a position as close to a TT bike as possible - to bee as aero as possible, but still be able to put out maximum watts.

Terpstras and Hansens positions are not the same as this current trend. They were aiming at having as low a front end as posible to be as low as possible, and doing so with small frames and long slammed stems. But there was a price to be paid, they didn't put out as many watts. My understanding is, that the current trend is not aiming towards that. It's seems to be the opposite, but aiming at the same goal, being as aero as possible and putting out a lot of watts.

I know two guys who have taking this current trend all the way. They are both riding at pro level, and they are racing all over Europe. I asked them what the filosify behind the fit is. They both ride frames bigger than their normal fit, with lots of spacers, long stems and very narrow handlebars. Their position mimicks the current pro riders TT position. Not as extreme as Van Ship, but not far from it either. The reason for the bigger frame is having fewer spacers under the stem and having a longer front end. Also they want to have there forarms point upwards like a TT bike position, rather than having the sphinx position with horizontal forarms. One of them is 195 cm. He rides a 62 frame with 170 mm stem. It looks crazy, but apparently it works. Personally I'm not a big fan of this, but if it works it works.
I think you're 100% dead on.
Also they want to have there forarms point upwards like a TT bike position, rather than having the sphinx position with horizontal forarms.
Just to add, I often see riders with the Terpstras fit who can't even manage to hold the sphinx position very long, and often default to a more typical posture with arms outstretched in front of their bodies. Not very aero. Meanwhile with a fit like Ritzinger or Van Ship's, its easier to more-comfortably default to a sphinx-like position, and then have the option to tuck into the even more aero "praying mantis" position.

by Weenie


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