Shigolo: a Descent Choice

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ichobi
Posts: 1910
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

Thanks op for the great thread as you have said you would give it time before posting. This is a solid resource. Funny ww never have a disc brake performance discussion thread before this.

Also interesting for you to note your use of large wam tires. I notice when i rode 30 or 32mm it gave way more confidence than the 28s on patchy descents. I think i will default my rear tire at least to 30mm while keeping the 28mm front, for now.

Would love to hear more from those who have experienced with the c22. Are they really all that?

And for some folks who have used the rx4+ how would you rate them compared to the default shimano and sram option?

Aeo
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:06 am

by Aeo

Just adding some visual aids for the Trickstuff C22
pipii wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:57 pm
56 ready to paint, 5.88kg ready to roll.
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jeanjacques
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:01 am
Location: France

by jeanjacques

OtterSpace wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 10:37 pm
Thanks for the info I'll edit it in. From what I get from what you are saying the Elixir pads have lower width so you have better clearance. These pads likely work with all Magura derived calipers. I'll measure my Magura MT4/8 FM, Ekar, and Shimano BR-R8170 caliper piston size and max retracted width and add it as well.
If the Elixir format (plenty of brands use them) works on the Campagnolo second gen, it will be a great news, I can't see anything wrong with them. The Campagnolo pads have always been problematic to adjust well (not enough clearance), no problem at all since the switch.
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 11:23 pm
The length is not the issue. The descents off just about all the big famous passes used in various grand tours are zero issue for any brakes, even carbon rim brake with latex if you are not too heavy. The problems arise when you have to bring a bike to a near stop from a very high speed on a sustained very steep slope, or a situation where you can't let the bike go to cool off. 11 - 12% on a one lane road with less than ideal surface, relentless changes in direction, and dense forest so you can't ever see if it's safe to let the bike go can be nasty.
Coudln't agree more, it's not a question about how long or over slowing, an example: south west french countryside, lots of 20% to 30% gradient, less than 100m of elevation, hairpins, no view, width for only one car, gravel in the bends brought there by the downpour, the recipe for overheating anything.

Sometimes it's possible to let go but you reach in a second 60km/h followed by an almost stop to 10 to turn and do it again 200m later but most of the time there is no other way than drag the brake and you modulate with this continueous braking so the modulation permited by your brake is the key point to be as fast as possible. You have to put all your weight on the saddle and every time you are at the limit of the braking power or front tire grip, the rear at the limit of the skidding. None of the major passes in the Alps will be like this and all the brakes will work.

I remember my first disc bike tour, it was a light build with Ashima Ai2 rotor, first descent and I felt on my fingers the heat comming from the front rotor... Changed it immediately for something stronger.

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C36
Posts: 2555
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by C36

Love what you did here and that will definitively be usefull. so far my disc bikes have all either be: test bikes, friends bikes or secondary bikes I didn't wanted to play as much as my rim brake ones where I tested 8 brake pads with more than 10 wheelsets and swap pads when I swap wheels.

From my 2 rides with the new red I do not like at all the lack of feel with such an "assisted" braking. There is just not enough return to "feel" things. Since it is on the levers, you won't really be able to fix it but it show that your post covers a point probably neglected for people with attention to detail.

OnTheRivet
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 10:10 pm
Personal Bike Example:

I plan to fill this in later for more context. As mentioned in the start of this thread I ride an ebike (300w motor assistance added to my input up to 45km/hr) which allows me to get a lot more climbing and descending in the same time period. I also live near short to medium and sharp hills with fairly technical road descents. All of this had me desiring a better braking system than Shimano or Shigura.

For now you can read my write up on this bike here.

Solace.jpg
Solace2.jpg
That bike makes me sad.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

OnTheRivet wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 1:17 am
That bike makes me sad.
A lot of people have the same opinion when I pass them at twice their speed. :thumbup:

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

OtterSpace wrote:
OnTheRivet wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 1:17 am
That bike makes me sad.
A lot of people have the same opinion when I pass them at twice their speed. Image
It's stuff like this that brings negative opinions about ebikes and their riders.
Never cheer before you know who is winning

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

wheelbuilder wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 4:42 am
It's stuff like this that brings negative opinions about ebikes and their riders.
That happens regardless but fair point I dont disagree but its a two sided coin as the previous unprompted interaction shows.

mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue May 16, 2023 3:08 pm
Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

wheelbuilder wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 4:42 am
OtterSpace wrote:
OnTheRivet wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 1:17 am
That bike makes me sad.
A lot of people have the same opinion when I pass them at twice their speed. Image
It's stuff like this that brings negative opinions about ebikes and their riders.
If people want to be small minded and egotistical when it comes to e-bikes they'll do it regardless of quips from e-bike riders in response to negativity.

This e-bike is cool 😎

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ms6073
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Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

OtterSpace wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 2:08 am
OnTheRivet wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 1:17 am
That bike makes me sad.
A lot of people have the same opinion when I pass them at twice their speed. :thumbup:
A Toyota Prius will also pass people pedlaing convental bikes all day long, does not mean I want to share the bike path with one?
- Michael
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"

muffinman
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:29 am
Location: SF Bay Area

by muffinman

Is there a difference in free stroke from the 12s Shimano calipers to Campagnolo? My biggest gripe with my 8170 group is the complete lack of free stroke available even with the adjustment maxed out. Very interested in trying this combo out soon.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

muffinman wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 9:18 pm
Is there a difference in free stroke from the 12s Shimano calipers to Campagnolo? My biggest gripe with my 8170 group is the complete lack of free stroke available even with the adjustment maxed out. Very interested in trying this combo out soon.
This has been on my mind a lot since jeanjacques's post about alternative thinner pads they use with Campag Calipers to reduce rotor ticking which has been my biggest issue with Shigolo when used with a Shimano rotor. I've since measured my different calipers and max piston seperation widths are similar between calipers at around 11.5mm while the caliper diameters are all the same at 21mm for Shimano, Campag, and Magura. I'll edit in dimension and weight photos sometime soon.

Admittedly, I have not played with free stroke adjust on the Shimano shifters which is a seperate adjustment from reach adjust. The adjustments are all at the ST and not the caliper. Given that I already swapped and havent played with free stroke adjust before swapping I don't think I can give a real answer for how free stroke adjustments at the ST differ between full Shimano and Shigolo.

For reference here are reach and freestroke adjustments at the shifter from the Shimano manual.
reach.png
free2.png
free3.png
I dont think reach or free stroke adjust would help mittigate my minor complaints with Shimano braking but they might help improve my minor issues with Shigolo. However, I'm not super optimistic as I think the free stroke is maxed out for pad clearance in the default config as all the bleeding instruction manuals tell you to return it to this config when bleeding.


qwertzuiop
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:12 am

by qwertzuiop

have you tried 180mm rotors and if they make any noticeable difference in breaking performance and feel? Peak Torque has an adapter for road bikes. I use them on my GRoad-bike with great success (I'm 90kg though).

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

qwertzuiop wrote:
Fri May 31, 2024 8:05 am
have you tried 180mm rotors and if they make any noticeable difference in breaking performance and feel? Peak Torque has an adapter for road bikes. I use them on my GRoad-bike with great success (I'm 90kg though).
I currently use 180 on the front with the campag 160f caliper due to my fork's native drilling.

For anyone seeing a decrease in braking performance (fade) during use I would recommend heavier and larger rotors and you are likely experiencing more severe thermal issues. The rear sees lower braking force so focus on the front first. So far Shimano rotors work best thermally of those I've tried.

The biggest advantage from bigger rotors I've seen is more heat tolerance from more thermal mass but that will also vary depending on what rotors you are swapping between.* I would say there is no discernible impact from rotor size on lever feel which comes from the ST, caliper, & pads provided that the system isnt overheating & fading.

To me the main advantage of Shigolo, and Shigura, is an easily perceived more gradual onset of braking force to lever throw in the first part of the post engagement lever throw that feels more like rim braking's initial engagement while it maintains hydros much more usable high braking force accessibility than rim.

*Floating rotors isolate the spider portion from the rotor used for braking to help warping and eliminate the possibility of transfering heat to your hub & hub bearings. However their thermal mass is actually less than some non floating rotors so keep that in mind. In use I've prefered pinned rotors like Shimano, that transfer some but not much heat to the spider, or solid rotors for cycling. However solid rotors will often target low total weight (galfer & especially ashima).

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