Shigolo: a Descent Choice

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OtterSpace
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by OtterSpace

Whats next to try?

After typing this up I need a beer. :beerchug:

GRX has a different deployment of ServoWave which I am interested in trying that is more like MTB ServoWave than the “road” ServoWave.
GRX.png
rudye9mr wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 10:03 pm
any breakdown on the hope RX4+ caliper?
RX4+ has extra pistons which would be interesting to try after having tons of time on Shigolo, Shimano, and Shigura. They have a DOT and a mineral oil version and pre E1 red it was viewed as the best DOT road option. I have yet to try it but might like to in the future.
RX4.PNG
Red E1 has improved braking performance. SRAM road was the worst hydro road braking by far last gen (D1 and earlier) but better braking with E1 doesn’t mean better than Shimano, Shigolo, or Campag and there are a lot of metrics to judge braking by. Initial reports all say that they are stronger than before but I am interested in far more than just strength and ease of engagement. Peak Torque has a good early look at it. From his report caliper pad retraction with E1 seems worse than Shimano BR9270.
e1.jpeg
Trickstuff piccola C22 flat mount is well regarded but hard to get.
trickstuff.jpeg

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rudye9mr
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by rudye9mr



same principles ought to apply

MichaelB
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by MichaelB

I do t have the detailed info that you do, but have the RX4+ on two bikes, one a full time roadie and one a Groadie with Shimano 11sp (8000 series)

Main reason is that I liked the idea of bigger pads (used Zee calipers previously, but not available in flat mount for new bikes) for better thermal management during the steeper descents.

I have had zero issues with them and am more than happy with the availability of replacement seals, pistons etc and their performance.

Look fwd to more info and findings from you

Cheers

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Amazing effort in this thread. Great info for those wanting to tinker with brakes.

BUT, thats a lot of flaming hoops to jump through to get great braking performance. Shame top end groupsets don't come with great performance as a feature.

To my mechanically simple mind, isn't the problem that these systems are just built too light? Isn't the easiest route to better braking a bigger heavier rotor and a bigger heavier caliper? At least for bigger riders? My perfectly maintained Dura Ace brakes are very good in most situations, but they are lacking somewhat on steep technical descents. They get raspy sounding, and fade as they heat up/overheat. Performance becomes inconsistent under hard braking as they heat and cool. And yeah, they are grabby...sometimes. Admittedly, me and my 175lb (79kg) ass prefer to brake very late and very hard.

Not surprisingly, Mrs. Gib at 105lbs (48kg) following right behind me, has zero issues with either rim brakes on carbon rims, or Juin Tech F1 mechanical disc brakes. It's been years since I changed a brake pad on any of her bikes.

How was the braking with the 180 rotor? I'd love a road bike with 180mm front rotor for mountain trips.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Aeo
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by Aeo

First off, good to see a thread like this. As you said, most roadies stay on their OEM setup forever, most don't even dare to try different pads and rotors.

You mentioned the Trickstuff C22, if you are inclined, you can order them here: https://www.bikedoc-shop.com/en/p/trick ... x1-fitting
They are very expensive but IMO are worth it.

If you need more things to experiment with, go look at the brake fluid.
Bionol (https://r2-bike.com/DANICO-BIOTECH-Hydr ... Bionol-1-l) and Putoline (https://www.putoline.com/en/catalogue/p ... -25w/1735/) are the candidates. (Yes, Putoline is marketed as a fork oil, also works very well in the brake system)
Giant TCR Adv Pro Disc '17 · BH Lynx Race Evo '19 · Seraph GR029 '21 · Canyon Inflite AL '14

basilic
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by basilic

OtterSpace, your pedagogical skills and attention to detail are superb. (admittedly I didn't read all of it as I'm still on rim).

OtterSpace
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by OtterSpace

Great initial replies everyone. From my perspective the more feedback we can get on all modern braking options in one place the better it is for someone deciding what to go with.

Although Shigolo is the best system I've found for my spirited descending so far I would rather have all OEM systems work better in the future with minimal faff. It certainly is better than it was in 2018 but there is still a long way to go. From my view there is tons of room left technically to improve disc then there was left on the table for rim design advancement.

To rudye9mr's point: there is nothing special about road bicycle brakes calipers technically as we are just following the path of highly established industries. Provided the seals are compatible mixing calipers shouldn't be a taboo. My perfect bike right now has Shimano, SRAM, Campag, and aftermarket components and I wish mixing was more of the norm to push the market forward and force manufacturers to fix their problematic components.

To Mr.Gib's comments: as I get better road brakes, and a more trustworth bike for descending which I consider more important, I just push descents harder and brake later. However, I also like brakes that can scrub speed confidently along with braking hard later. As a rider I'm sub 140lbs with gear (64kg) and still see minor thermal issues with 180f but they are just slightly deforming disc (ticking) while braking remains consistent without fading or squealing brakes all of which I consider to be bigger thermal issues. As an OEM system I consider Shimano to have the best thermal performance.

We are really in a strange place with current disc road. It can offer better overall dry braking with 160f/140r than the best rim setups while being around 450g heavier as a braking & lever system. However to me an extra 200g offers a whole new world of high performance. Many dont need more braking performance but once you get a taste you just want more and push harder which I now find missing from my rim bikes.

To Aeo's point: I'll likely engage with Trickstuff last. I truely appreciate their design, company, and manufacturing location. However given the price I want to investigate them last with more stable footing so that I'm not just happy with better than OEM performance. The other options sound like fun so thank you for the recommendations. Currently I am playing with rotors before I consider another caliper change.

alanyu
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by alanyu

This is a GREAT post. I also much prefer the linearity/modulation of the rim brake, but the disc brake is much all rounder to not-so-ideal environments.

As to Shimano, I think it's their laziness keeping the same/similar pull ratio (or should it be hydraulic push ratio) on the caliper side as mtb, resulting in a such strong initial bite and steep linearity.

RDY
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by RDY

My observation is that Shigura road with servo wave levers is significantly more powerful than all-Campag (tried Ekar and Record 12 mech) and feels better. Not tried Shigolo. Bleeding the MT8FM calipers hasn't proved to be an issue. I use Bionol in my all Shimano and Shigura setups - road and MTB.

pushpush
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by pushpush

Great information in this thread!

jeanjacques
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by jeanjacques

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 9:57 pm
The 1st gen Campag calipers listed in (Magura passes the baton to Campagnolo) follow this same logic but I don’t know why you would seek them out unless you already have them or find them for a substantial discount.
Because it permit to use the Elixir pads with alloy carrier plate and spring, the result seems to be the largest width between pads and a strong retraction.
I opened a thread about this here whitout lot of success despit how good is the result: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=164827

mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

How long are these descents people are having issues with Shimano brakes on? Are the people having issues because they are fast or because they are possibly over slowing and braking for too long?

I'm a keen descender, tend to excel on technical descents (I don't have the gearing or the watts to trouble the top-100 on the properly fast ones) and I've yet to experience a problem.

Although, my longest reasonably technical descent is probably 9km at ~7-8%.

I'm heading to the Alps later this year, just wondering what to expect.

jeanjacques
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by jeanjacques

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OtterSpace
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by OtterSpace

jeanjacques wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 8:57 pm
Because it permit to use the Elixir pads with alloy carrier plate and spring, the result seems to be the largest width between pads and a strong retraction.
I opened a thread about this here whitout lot of success despit how good is the result: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=164827
Thanks for the info I'll edit it in. From what I get from what you are saying the Elixir pads have lower width so you have better clearance. These pads likely work with all Magura derived calipers. I'll measure my Magura MT4/8 FM, Ekar, and Shimano BR-R8170 caliper piston size and max retracted width and add it as well.
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 9:17 pm
How long are these descents people are having issues with Shimano brakes on?

Although, my longest reasonably technical descent is probably 9km at ~7-8%.
Different people report different issues. For me the issue with Shimano is the grabbiness and predictability of braking to lever throw if you want to bleed a little bit of speed while descending fast. I also find Shimano to have the best thermal performance.

Some others have thermal issues and likely would benfit from a heavier rotor or larger rotor size regadless of caliper.

For reference I ride 42mm WAM tires which allows me to really push descents.

I hit 50mph (80km/hr) on this short descent which isn't technical after the turn so you can just bomb it before braking at the intersection with Belridge. I dont have any issue with Shimano brakes here as braking needs are fairly binary and not repeated before the system cools down.

However for more technical descents, like those linked below, I am far faster than a car but don't like Shimano calipers for their grabbiness and trust Shigolo much more. I also run into thermal issues with galfer front rotors on these roads.
Teresita
Aztec & Maya section of Aztec
Bohlman-on-orbit
blackberry

The Maya section of Aztec is a good example of my issues with Shimano. It is a rough private road, which thankfully is wide enough, that is fairly blind. With Shimano I would use the brakes more early to know that I am successfully bleeding enough speed in case a car comes and I need to emergency brake now that my wide tires can soak up the road surface chatter. With Shigolo I now am able to confidently drop just the right amount of speed over the rough stuff past the blind turn before pushing the descent again all the way down to Cypress down to Los Gatos Blvd.

I doubt modern Shimano 160f/140r or greater would run into any thermal issues on sub 8% descents even if they are long for lighter riders. Just because a descent is fast doesnt mean I consider it technical and from what I've seen of grand tour descents in the Alps the roads are usually fairly prestine.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 9:17 pm
How long are these descents people are having issues with Shimano brakes on? Are the people having issues because they are fast or because they are possibly over slowing and braking for too long?

I'm a keen descender, tend to excel on technical descents (I don't have the gearing or the watts to trouble the top-100 on the properly fast ones) and I've yet to experience a problem.

Although, my longest reasonably technical descent is probably 9km at ~7-8%.

I'm heading to the Alps later this year, just wondering what to expect.

The length is not the issue. The descents off just about all the big famous passes used in various grand tours are zero issue for any brakes, even carbon rim brake with latex if you are not too heavy. The problems arise when you have to bring a bike to a near stop from a very high speed on a sustained very steep slope, or a situation where you can't let the bike go to cool off. 11 - 12% on a one lane road with less than ideal surface, relentless changes in direction, and dense forest so you can't ever see if it's safe to let the bike go can be nasty. Now add a hot day and a rider over 160 lbs. How about some 15 - 20% sections? You simply can't let the bike go at all in situations like this. You only need a couple of kms of this to push the best brakes to the absolute limit. IMO these lesser roads are the most fun to ride, but they are tough on equipment. If you have a trip planned I encourage you to seek some of these out. Where in the Alps are you going?
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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