Shigolo: a Descent Choice

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OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

Aeo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 6:33 am
First off, good to see a thread like this. As you said, most roadies stay on their OEM setup forever, most don't even dare to try different pads and rotors.

You mentioned the Trickstuff C22, if you are inclined, you can order them here: https://www.bikedoc-shop.com/en/p/trick ... x1-fitting
They are very expensive but IMO are worth it.

If you need more things to experiment with, go look at the brake fluid.
Bionol (https://r2-bike.com/DANICO-BIOTECH-Hydr ... Bionol-1-l) and Putoline (https://www.putoline.com/en/catalogue/p ... -25w/1735/) are the candidates. (Yes, Putoline is marketed as a fork oil, also works very well in the brake system)
Thanks again for this post. With your info as a starting point I did more digging on the fluid side and found another great resource made by MTB riders who tinker with brakes.

According to their list, which pulls from SDS and datasheets, the best mineral oil is Red Line LikeWater followed by Bionol. Bionol has other advantages worth stating in that it is derived from vegetable oil, is biodegradable, and isn't hazardous. Both of these fluids are thinner and the MTB posts on them focus on much better low ambient temp performance from the lower viscosity. Bionol is harder to get in the USA so I ordered some Red Line LikeWater.

They also have tons more data in their spreadsheet including tons of calculations for rotor leverage to different rotor sizes with different systems and also list DOT fluids if anyone running SRAM is looking for a different fluid too.

---

On another note I rebleed yesterday with the proper Campagnolo bleed tool where previously I used a Magura bleed block I had on hand for the initial bleed instead of waiting for the Campag block to ship from backorder. I clearly had the system slightly overfilled previously so most of the rotor ticking issues I had came from the overfill. With a Shimano Ice-tech rotor it still can tick a tiny bit for medium heat loads but much less than before and that is fairly common with those rotors.

mikemelbrooks
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:58 pm

by mikemelbrooks

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:04 am
Aeo wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 6:33 am
First off, good to see a thread like this. As you said, most roadies stay on their OEM setup forever, most don't even dare to try different pads and rotors.

You mentioned the Trickstuff C22, if you are inclined, you can order them here: https://www.bikedoc-shop.com/en/p/trick ... x1-fitting
They are very expensive but IMO are worth it.

If you need more things to experiment with, go look at the brake fluid.
Bionol (https://r2-bike.com/DANICO-BIOTECH-Hydr ... Bionol-1-l) and Putoline (https://www.putoline.com/en/catalogue/p ... -25w/1735/) are the candidates. (Yes, Putoline is marketed as a fork oil, also works very well in the brake system)
Thanks again for this post. With your info as a starting point I did more digging on the fluid side and found another great resource made by MTB riders who tinker with brakes.

According to their list, which pulls from SDS and datasheets, the best mineral oil is Red Line LikeWater followed by Bionol. Bionol has other advantages worth stating in that it is derived from vegetable oil, is biodegradable, and isn't hazardous. Both of these fluids are thinner and the MTB posts on them focus on much better low ambient temp performance from the lower viscosity. Bionol is harder to get in the USA so I ordered some Red Line LikeWater.

They also have tons more data in their spreadsheet including tons of calculations for rotor leverage to different rotor sizes with different systems and also list DOT fluids if anyone running SRAM is looking for a different fluid too.

---

On another note I rebleed yesterday with the proper Campagnolo bleed tool where previously I used a Magura bleed block I had on hand for the initial bleed instead of waiting for the Campag block to ship from backorder. I clearly had the system slightly overfilled previously so most of the rotor ticking issues I had came from the overfill. With a Shimano Ice-tech rotor it still can tick a tiny bit for medium heat loads but much less than before and that is fairly common with those rotors.
For clarification, there is a rubber bladder in the brake lever of Shimano brakes, if you over fill the system the bladder will distort rupture or leak.
I think what you mean is you over pressurised the brake line. This is easy to do if you change worn out pads or fit a thicker disc or use too small brake bleed block.
I find it interesting you talk of different viscosity of brake fluids, but I rarely see any mention of brake barbs, the barb is the smallest diameter of the brake line and therefore must make a difference to brake performance/feel?
I have been trying some Hope x4 copies from China on a tandem ( nothing like two riders and a 40lb tandem at 45mph to test brakes). I am impressed so far, but the bleeding is messy. Just a threaded hole and a screw with a Oring.

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OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

mikemelbrooks wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:19 am
I find it interesting you talk of different viscosity of brake fluids, but I rarely see any mention of brake barbs, the barb is the smallest diameter of the brake line and therefore must make a difference to brake performance/feel?
Fair point. I already have a placeholder post on Barbs, Olives, and Hose but didn't populate it much in the initial posting so I decided to capture the barbs I have on hand.

From pin gauges I can confirm that Shimano has a bigger ID. Those in colaberative engineering can likely attest that whatever pin gauge size you want is almost certain to be missing so I don't know exact max ID of Shimano but its at least 0.068 inches (1.7272mm converted) while Magura and Campag are both 0.062 inches (1.5748mm converted). Part of a 0.063 pin gauge would fit into Magura & Campag but I didn't want to force it and 0.071 did not fit into Shimano.

Supporting images:
all.png
pins.jpg
mc.jpg
Magura and Campag are basically the same and are longer and have a wider OD (2.52mm and the widest flair not at the end) compared to Shimano OD (2.37mm) but Campag & Magura have an even wider OD at the inner tip at 2.8mm. The length of the Campag barb was too long because of the much longer threaded support sleve portion of the barb to use my optimized Ti hose nut with reduced thread length so I used Shimano barb, olive, and hose, for my Shigolo setup and my setup has not leaked.

I have not looked into hoses and olives.
mikemelbrooks wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:19 am
I have been trying some Hope x4 copies from China on a tandem ( nothing like two riders and a 40lb tandem at 45mph to test brakes). I am impressed so far, but the bleeding is messy. Just a threaded hole and a screw with a Oring.
Magura MT4/8 FM is similar and was annoying which is a big reason I didn't opt for RX4+. Both have a simple bolt for bleed so there is no way to turn off flow to the port while attaching or removing the bleed system unless the bleed tool adds it preferably as close to the caliper as possible. I've found the best way to deal with such systems is to have a good bike stand to help moving different ports to the top or bottom of the system which for a tandem sounds like a massive pain. At this point with other options on the market I dont see a need to put up with such an antiquated bleed process.

SRAM improves this with a better bleed tool, Campag and Trickstuff with wider bleed ports that have inner and outer bolts, and 12s generation Shimano road by having separate bolts for flow & bleed.

mikemelbrooks
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:58 pm

by mikemelbrooks

OtterSpace wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:43 pm
mikemelbrooks wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:19 am
I find it interesting you talk of different viscosity of brake fluids, but I rarely see any mention of brake barbs, the barb is the smallest diameter of the brake line and therefore must make a difference to brake performance/feel?
Fair point. I already have a placeholder post on Barbs, Olives, and Hose but didn't populate it much in the initial posting so I decided to capture the barbs I have on hand.

From pin gauges I can confirm that Shimano has a bigger ID. Those in colaberative engineering can likely attest that whatever pin gauge size you want is almost certain to be missing so I don't know exact max ID of Shimano but its at least 0.068 inches (1.7272mm converted) while Magura and Campag are both 0.062 inches (1.5748mm converted). Part of a 0.063 pin gauge would fit into Magura & Campag but I didn't want to force it and 0.071 did not fit into Shimano.

Supporting images:
all.png
pins.jpg
mc.jpg

Magura and Campag are basically the same and are longer and have a wider OD (2.52mm and the widest flair not at the end) compared to Shimano OD (2.37mm) but Campag & Magura have an even wider OD at the inner tip at 2.8mm. The length of the Campag barb was too long because of the much longer threaded support sleve portion of the barb to use my optimized Ti hose nut with reduced thread length so I used Shimano barb, olive, and hose, for my Shigolo setup and my setup has not leaked.

I have not looked into hoses and olives.
mikemelbrooks wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:19 am
I have been trying some Hope x4 copies from China on a tandem ( nothing like two riders and a 40lb tandem at 45mph to test brakes). I am impressed so far, but the bleeding is messy. Just a threaded hole and a screw with a Oring.
Magura MT4/8 FM is similar and was annoying which is a big reason I didn't opt for RX4+. Both have a simple bolt for bleed so there is no way to turn off flow to the port while attaching or removing the bleed system unless the bleed tool adds it preferably as close to the caliper as possible. I've found the best way to deal with such systems is to have a good bike stand to help moving different ports to the top or bottom of the system which for a tandem sounds like a massive pain. At this point with other options on the market I dont see a need to put up with such an antiquated bleed process.

SRAM improves this with a better bleed tool, Campag and Trickstuff with wider bleed ports that have inner and outer bolts, and 12s generation Shimano road by having separate bolts for flow & bleed.
I have posted wether it would be possible to retro fit a SRAM bleeding edge type bleed to a Hope style caliper?
I thought that Shimano barbs are available in two different internal diameters. BH59 and BH90.
So far I have only fitted the Hope copy to the front fork because of the bleeding difficulties of the tandem.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

mikemelbrooks wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:44 pm
I thought that Shimano barbs are available in two different internal diameters. BH59 and BH90.
Yes but BH59 is rarely seen for road anymore so the above is a BH90. I've always used a matching Shimano a hose, bard, & olive set and never mixed any of those three parts between BH90 and BH59 although I think the olive is the same. Everything I see talks about hose ID and OD and not barb ID & OD. I purged my BH59 stuff around 7 years ago so I dont have any on hand to measure but the barb was brass color vs the sliverish BH90 Barb. However, the BH59 brass colored barb will have an even larger ID.

From a quick google search both BH90 and BH59 hose have 5mm OD with BH90 ID of 2.1mm and BH59 ID of 2.3mm.

In general BH59 was viewed as mushy and couldn't handle the pressure well likely from the thin ID to OD delta in the hose for the materials Shimano uses. Here is a thread on it in case anyone wants to read more. I don't think BH59 hose is recommended at all anymore for road.

I no longer have Magura hose but it appeared to be made of stiffer materials than the Shimano BH59. From a quick google Magura hose was the same (ID: 2.3mm, OD: 5mm) dimensions as BH59. I do not see any info online for the ID of Campag EC-DB003 and I've never seen it in person to see how stiff it is. However, given Campag hydro evolved from Magura I would guess they are similar to Magura.

If all this speculation holds it might be interesting to try EC-DB003 or Magura hose with BH59 barb & olive for Shigolo. However, I'm very happy with my setup and I don't want to reroute my internally routed handlebars and frame again so I likely won't try it.
mikemelbrooks wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:44 pm
I have posted wether it would be possible to retro fit a SRAM bleeding edge type bleed to a Hope style caliper?
I dont have SRAM hydro, have never bleed it, and have only test ridden it so take what I say with a huge grain of salt.

From what photos I can dig up they implement this system with a specific bolt. In order to use it you would need the same width, threading, and approximate bleed port depth on the caliper to use this bolt which is highly unlikely. In order to add this capability SRAM widened this bolt much like Campag and Trickstuff did in order to add this extra bleed functionality to the inner portion.
sram.PNG
mikemelbrooks wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:44 pm
So far I have only fitted the Hope copy to the front fork because of the bleeding difficulties of the tandem.
Yeah the rear is where you will really run into issues with bleeding such a caliper. I'd just go Shimano BR-R7070 for such a build with the largest Shimano Ice-tech rotor you can fit.

If you find you want stronger front braking for the tandem, which I probably would in your shoes, I would go for a flat mount to post mount adapter in order to open up the option to try stronger MTB calipers with wider pads and then place the largest Ice-tech rotor you can reasonably fit.
adapter.PNG
adapter.PNG (300.13 KiB) Viewed 533 times
rudye9mr wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 10:03 pm
any breakdown on the hope RX4+ caliper?
Looping back to this again as I've been looking into it more.

The more I research the less I'm interested in Hope RX4+ for mineral oil systems. It could work better in practice for lever feel like I've found with Shigura and Shigolo but thats hard to guess at. Putting aside the bleed issues touched on above the advantages of Hope RX4+ are 4 piston, monoblock, and more colors.

4 Piston:
The force a caliper can apply to the pads comes from the surface area of the pistons. Hope RX4+ claims 2x14mm + 2x16mm pistons while Campag claims 22mm and replacement aftermarket pistons for Shimano claim 22mm (not linked as I dont want to advertise them).

Hope RX4+ piston area: 2*π*(14^2) + 2*π*(16^2) ≈ 2,840

Shimano / Campag piston area: 2*π*(22^2) ≈ 3,041.06 (~7% more than Hope RX4+ claims)

I measured Shimano, Magura, & Campag and got 21mm which would be: 2*π*(21^2) ≈ 2,770.88 (~2.5% less than Hope RX4+ claims). However, I just measured it roughly with calipers in the assembly.

Seems like a wash on braking power.
4 Piston can make pads wear more evenly front to rear but road bike pads are so narrow that I doubt it makes a difference and on pads I've replaced I've noticed more of a top to bottom uneven wear, likely from the spring separating the pads, not front to rear. To me pad wear is a tertiary concern at best.

Monoblock:
To me this is a nice to have and I would prefer monoblock over 2 part, all else being equal, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get it. If this matters to you Shimano BR-R9270 and Magura MT4/8 FM offer this. To me monoblock is a secondary concern at best.

Colors:
A true advantage that end users can place their own value on.

mikemelbrooks
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:58 pm

by mikemelbrooks

Hi, the tandem is post mount, on the front of the tandem I use a hope 220mm floating disc, and on the rear a uberbike radiator disc of 203mm. The brake levers are Shimano GRX. With the original brake set up, (cable operated bb7s and Avid 180mm discs) I turned the rear disc brown due to being stuck behind a car on a long steep descent.
It looks like the SRAM Bleeding edge conversion is off as there isn't much material to allow a larger diameter fitting and it would be very close to blocking of the drilling between both sides of the caliper. I went with BH59 fittings as this was supplied with the caliper. So I might change the front hose and see if I can feel a difference.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

mikemelbrooks wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:10 am
Hi, the tandem is post mount, on the front of the tandem I use a hope 220mm floating disc, and on the rear a uberbike radiator disc of 203mm. The brake levers are Shimano GRX. With the original brake set up, (cable operated bb7s and Avid 180mm discs) I turned the rear disc brown due to being stuck behind a car on a long steep descent.
I went with BH59 fittings as this was supplied with the caliper. So I might change the front hose and see if I can feel a difference.
Nice for a bike with that much system weight post mount is likely the way to go as it opens up more options for stronger brakes.

You might benifit from reading two articles on MTB brake testing by enduro-MTB and blisterreview.

Some excerpts to highlight in regards to my journey to find better road braking and personal dislike of Shimano's strong initial "grabby" bite:

"While Shimano’s typical on/off brake feel might take a little getting used to"

"What does still make the XT brakes stand out, though, is their combination of good power with a very firm bite point, not-super-long lever throw, and quite sharp power delivery, with lots of power very readily available from the initial engagement of the brakes. Many of those traits tend to come in direct conflict with each other — increasing power means increasing the overall leverage of a brake, which tends to make for a longer free stroke and softer bite point, for example"

"Shimano, on the other hand, use a sandwich design with an aluminium core on their XTR ICE-TECH rotors, which is intended to improve heat dissipation, while at the same time reducing weight. Our lab results confirmed that sandwich structure makes perfect sense, with the Shimano XTR [rotors] reading the lowest temperatures"

Looping back to your more specific setup the "uberbike radiator disc of 203mm" looks awfully similar to the rotors Trace Velo shows in a recent video. If you are looking to improve braking I believe Ice-Tech rotors would improve braking performance over both of your chosen rotors at the expense of an increased chance of medium heat load ticking from the sandwich construction metals deflecting at different rates.

mikemelbrooks
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:58 pm

by mikemelbrooks

Thanks for the links, I will read them through properly. On a skim read noticed this
"For folks who think that the full-on V4 is likely to be overkill, Hope also makes a Tech 4 E4, which uses an identical lever, paired with a slightly smaller caliper (with four 16 mm pistons instead of two 18 mm and two 16 mm ones). We haven’t yet tried the E4 version, but in theory, the change in piston size should make for about 13% less power than the V4s, a slightly shorter stroke and firmer bite point, and otherwise very similar performance." I measured the Zoom 4 piston caliper has 16mm pistons. The pistons seem to only retract a small way and so not very forgiving on warped discs. I did see the trace velo video, I already get ticking from the rotors but it only for a short while. I have heard so many stories of Ice tech rotors distorting that I am wary of trying them.

mikemelbrooks
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:58 pm

by mikemelbrooks

" 4 Piston:
The force a caliper can apply to the pads comes from the surface area of the pistons. Hope RX4+ claims 2x14mm + 2x16mm pistons while Campag claims 22mm and replacement aftermarket pistons for Shimano claim 22mm (not linked as I dont want to advertise them).

Hope RX4+ piston area: 2*π*(14^2) + 2*π*(16^2) ≈ 2,840

Shimano / Campag piston area: 2*π*(22^2) ≈ 3,041.06 (~7% more than Hope RX4+ claims)

I measured Shimano, Magura, & Campag and got 21mm which would be: 2*π*(21^2) ≈ 2,770.88 (~2.5% less than Hope RX4+ claims). However, I just measured it roughly with calipers in the assembly."
I can confirm that Shimano 2 piston brakes are 22mm and that most Shimano 4 piston brakes are 17 and 15mm.

rudye9mr
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 12:01 pm

by rudye9mr

Noted on rx4+ ..similar thoughts on liking the monoblock but even in motorsports, split type calipers can achieve similar stiffness with bracing. There are schools of thought that their ought to be flex in the caliper so that something else does not have to take up that force (fork? mounting bolts?).

Agreed on Magura as tried and proven monoblocks...but very happy with stock all campy disc set up.

There is another way to tackle this in looking at braking pad and rotor compounds similar to carbon ceramic rotors that come in higher spec cars though those need initial warm up, something that may not be safe on a bicycle.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

mikemelbrooks wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2024 10:44 pm
I thought that Shimano barbs are available in two different internal diameters. BH59 and BH90.
OtterSpace wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:06 am
From a quick google search both BH90 and BH59 hose have 5mm OD with BH90 ID of 2.1mm and BH59 ID of 2.3mm.

In general BH59 was viewed as mushy and couldn't handle the pressure well likely from the thin ID to OD delta in the hose for the materials Shimano uses. Here is a thread on it in case anyone wants to read more. I don't think BH59 hose is recommended at all anymore for road.

I no longer have Magura hose but it appeared to be made of stiffer materials than the Shimano BH59. From a quick google Magura hose was the same (ID: 2.3mm, OD: 5mm) dimensions as BH59. I do not see any info online for the ID of Campag EC-DB003 and I've never seen it in person to see how stiff it is. However, given Campag hydro evolved from Magura I would guess they are similar to Magura.

If all this speculation holds it might be interesting to try EC-DB003 or Magura hose with BH59 barb & olive for Shigolo. However, I'm very happy with my setup and I don't want to reroute my internally routed handlebars and frame again so I likely won't try it.
Looping back around to this. I was interested in checking the BH59 barb to see if it was a good candidate for Shigolo with Campag, Magura, or Trickstuff brake lines so I ordered a set.

BH59 barb should be avoided for Shigolo due to a narrower than expected ID of 0.058 inches (1.4732mm converted).
  • Shimano BH90 is at least 0.068 inches (1.7272mm converted) while Magura and Campag are both 0.062 inches (1.5748mm converted).
BH59 barb has a step down from a wide opening at the end to a narrower ID for most of the length than alternatives so BH59 will add more impedance to the flow.
BH59.png
On another note I've been looking into brake pads but need more time to test. More on them soon.

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