Tadej Pogacar’s Giro Crash: Final Nail in the Hookless Coffin?

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rollinslow
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by rollinslow

Even for technically proficient people hookless can't be trusted (i.e. Led's experience). I suspect the only reason Enve pushed hookless was 1) save money 2) easy-out from their side-wall cutting poorly made hooks. Why accept any unnecessary risk? Why accept shifting standards? What will happen when certain tires are no longer made or a new wheelset arrives? The mess that is hookless can only worsen if it further expands. Only consumers being informed or risk-management for these companies finally stepping-in will change that.
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Lina
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by Lina

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 10:13 am
CampagYOLO wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 9:53 am
My main concern is still with riders who aren't technically proficient buying hookless wheels and not realising the extra knowledge that's required, I've seen people using tubes and non tubeless clinchers on hookless Zipp wheels for example.

99% of posters on here know their stuff and have made an informed decision about hookless but we're only a tiny proportion of the cycling public.

Zipp are a desireable brand for many people still, especially for those who don't have the time or inclination to do their research. I've just seen on my cycle club's Facebook page a few people who definitely aren't technically proficient showing off their new Zipp wheels.

There shouldn't be this expectation when buying wheels that you have to know all this extra stuff, you should be able to fit whatever tyres you want then enjoy riding them.
Does this same concern apply to Tubeless?

Would someone buying a non-TL GP5000 and setting it up tubeless be putting themselves at a similar risk?
I can't comment about non-TL GP5000 as tubeless but I've set up quite a few non-tubeless tires as tubeless, and some of them even on non-tubeless rims. Yeah the horror. And I'm far more confident in those applications that are completely against all the rules and recommendations than I'd be using a road tubeless on Zipp wheels with everything following the rim and tire manufacturer guidelines.

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LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

I’m of half the opinion (purely based on anecdotal evidence) that the major problem at this point is with specific Zipp (and maybe Extralite and a few other brands that may not have adequately tested a range of tires to the necessary degree) models. I think hookless has pushed tire companies to be more vigilant with QC and standards.

On the flip side, how many true hookless blowoffs (not due to ignorance of safety instructions) have occurred that haven’t involved Zipp 353s or 454s (or the one with the out of spec Extralite wheel)? I can’t think of any.

I’ve never heard of a 303FC blowoff. I’ve heard of 303S blowoffs, but it’s always been because people are running 90+ psi.

We can all probably agree that it’s not fair to expect the general riding population to understand the limits and expectations with hookless without being directly educated about it.

Then you consider the unexplained weight gain for the 353s and 454s last year and the fact that Zipp is now making tires specifically to fit exact models, and it makes you wonder if it’s something about those wheels and not about hookless more broadly.

Just thinking out loud.

I think the main draw to the 353s and 454s was the weight. Now that their weight has gone up and competitors have gone down, it makes them a less attractive proposition. I think, independent of the very real blowoff concern, they are very good wheels.


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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 8:59 am
I'm only against the speculation, not the fact that hookless *might* be problematic :beerchug:
And what exactly would it take for you to believe that hookless "might" be problematic?

And LedZepplin007's speculation seems pretty tangible for just "speculation".
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mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

Mr.Gib wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 3:32 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 8:59 am
I'm only against the speculation, not the fact that hookless *might* be problematic :beerchug:
And what exactly would it take for you to believe that hookless "might" be problematic?

And LedZepplin007's speculation seems pretty tangible for just "speculation".
Go Google tubeless blow offs. There are endless examples of both hooked and hookless blow offs on the internet, why don't we blame tubeless instead?

We don't need to go around in circles, but we still have zero idea whether his problem was environmental, with the tyre, the rim, hookless, tubeless, incorrect mounting or whatever. No theory based on some pictures of the internet can be anything but speculation.

I'm more inclined to believe the 353 is problematic than hookless at this point in time, but even that's speculative.

justonwo
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by justonwo

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 7:33 am
justonwo wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 2:42 am
If they believed 28 mm tires were safe, then those tires would be listed as approved on their site. They are not. This isn't a matter of the internet ignoring anything.

By Zipp's own guidelines, the tires aren't safe. And that's a change. Which means they should be contacting owners of those wheels.
Sounds like you're a little late to the party, but what did Zipp say when you contacted them with your concerns?
Late to the party? When did they change their guidelines? In the last 1-2 months, no? I guess that's my point. Why should I have to show up to the party? It's not my job to comb the internet for updates to my equipment.

Zipp simply told me that the ISO standards changed and that the change isn't their problem. They told me I should contact the tire manufacturers with questions.

I sent a very follow up asking them explicitly if they believe I should remove my 28 mm Corsa Controls from the wheels but they won't answer any of my direct questions.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 4:05 pm

Go Google tubeless blow offs. There are endless examples of both hooked and hookless blow offs on the internet, why don't we blame tubeless instead?

Go ahead and link us an example of a known hooked tubeless blowoff where every “i” was dotted and every “t” was crossed like in LedZeppelin007’s case.

Take your time. We’ll wait.

mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

justonwo wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 4:41 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 7:33 am
justonwo wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 2:42 am
If they believed 28 mm tires were safe, then those tires would be listed as approved on their site. They are not. This isn't a matter of the internet ignoring anything.

By Zipp's own guidelines, the tires aren't safe. And that's a change. Which means they should be contacting owners of those wheels.
Sounds like you're a little late to the party, but what did Zipp say when you contacted them with your concerns?
Late to the party? When did they change their guidelines? In the last 1-2 months, no? I guess that's my point. Why should I have to show up to the party? It's not my job to comb the internet for updates to my equipment.

Zipp simply told me that the ISO standards changed and that the change isn't their problem. They told me I should contact the tire manufacturers with questions.

I sent a very follow up asking them explicitly if they believe I should remove my 28 mm Corsa Controls from the wheels but they won't answer any of my direct questions.
You're right, although Zipp did say they believe tyres that met the previous standard remain safe.

That said, I think you should remove Vittoria tyres from your hookless wheels.

Enve have recommended against their use on their hookless rims and there has been a strong trend of Vittoria tyres failing in the pro peloton.

I think you'd be mad not to run the Z30 NSW tyre made specifically for the wheel now one exists. The benefits extend far beyond the safety of being designed for the rim and being tested by Zipp.

counterintelligence
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by counterintelligence

I signed up for this forum after reading this thread. My last wheelset was the Zipp 303FC (w/ 32mm Conti 5000 S TR). I am currently on Enve 4.5s (w 30mm Goodyear EF1R - which by the way were super hard to install and hold air better than any tubeless setup I've ever had). I haven't had a blowout on either pair of hookless wheels but given how closely LedZeppelin007 followed the hookless "rules" I have my doubts now where I didn't before. When the other reported blowoffs happened I wondered about tires out of ETRTO spec (like 28s on 25mm internal), use of inserts, running too much pressure etc. Seeing this happen given perfect compliance with the rules + documentation from tirewiz etc gives me pause.

I just bought a new hooked wheelset and I've almost made up my mind to sell the Enve 4.5s. Looking forward to the result of Zipp's investigation for more perspective. Glad you're ok, LedZeppelin007.

mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 5:54 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 4:05 pm

Go Google tubeless blow offs. There are endless examples of both hooked and hookless blow offs on the internet, why don't we blame tubeless instead?

Go ahead and link us an example of a known hooked tubeless blowoff where every “i” was dotted and every “t” was crossed like in LedZeppelin007’s case.

Take your time. We’ll wait.
It's the internet, such a case cannot be proven, not least here!

I'm not going to waste my time trying, either. I don't care about looking to be in the right or whether you believe me, I'm just throwing the cat among the pigeons and asking a few pertinent questions.

If you want to continue believing that hooked tubeless never goes wrong, it's no skin off my back :lol:

LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

counterintelligence wrote:I signed up for this forum after reading this thread. My last wheelset was the Zipp 303FC (w/ 32mm Conti 5000 S TR). I am currently on Enve 4.5s (w 30mm Goodyear EF1R - which by the way were super hard to install and hold air better than any tubeless setup I've ever had). I haven't had a blowout on either pair of hookless wheels but given how closely LedZeppelin007 followed the hookless "rules" I have my doubts now where I didn't before. When the other reported blowoffs happened I wondered about tires out of ETRTO spec (like 28s on 25mm internal), use of inserts, running too much pressure etc. Seeing this happen given perfect compliance with the rules + documentation from tirewiz etc gives me pause.

I just bought a new hooked wheelset and I've almost made up my mind to sell the Enve 4.5s. Looking forward to the result of Zipp's investigation for more perspective. Glad you're ok, LedZeppelin007.
I really appreciate that, man.

If you want my honest opinion now that I’ve had a week after the blow-off to mull everything over, here it is:

1) I’ve put thousands of miles on hookless wheels and have defended them and their existence online

2) This is the only significant issue I’ve had with them (granted, it’s extremely significant)

3) I can’t prove that the fault of the blowoff was the 353s or their hookless design, although I strongly believe that to be the case

4) I will feel somewhat safer on hooked rims moving forward

5) I suspect that there is something about the design of the 353 that makes it more prone to blowoffs, but I’m not an engineer and I have no proof. This is based on my own experience, the data that I have from that ride, the number of incidents I’ve heard with 353s being involved (a good proportion of them, despite likely making up only a small amount of hookless wheels being used), the unexplained weight increase last year (perhaps trying to address a problem?), and speculation from other riders that the rim is very flexy from the factory.

6) After talking extensively with Zipp and Enve, I would consider riding hookless again. I’ve ridden 4.5s extensively and have a lot of confidence in them. I won’t ever ride 353s again, though.


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mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 468
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Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

Zipp did explain the weight increase recently. Possibly on their question time with EC?

I forget the specifics but it was something to do with a tweak to layup around the spokes and normalising variations between two different factories producing the wheel sets.

It's on here somewhere but my search skills are lacking this evening.

justonwo
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 9:16 pm

by justonwo

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 5:55 pm
justonwo wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 4:41 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 7:33 am
justonwo wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 2:42 am
If they believed 28 mm tires were safe, then those tires would be listed as approved on their site. They are not. This isn't a matter of the internet ignoring anything.

By Zipp's own guidelines, the tires aren't safe. And that's a change. Which means they should be contacting owners of those wheels.
Sounds like you're a little late to the party, but what did Zipp say when you contacted them with your concerns?
Late to the party? When did they change their guidelines? In the last 1-2 months, no? I guess that's my point. Why should I have to show up to the party? It's not my job to comb the internet for updates to my equipment.

Zipp simply told me that the ISO standards changed and that the change isn't their problem. They told me I should contact the tire manufacturers with questions.

I sent a very follow up asking them explicitly if they believe I should remove my 28 mm Corsa Controls from the wheels but they won't answer any of my direct questions.
You're right, although Zipp did say they believe tyres that met the previous standard remain safe.

That said, I think you should remove Vittoria tyres from your hookless wheels.

Enve have recommended against their use on their hookless rims and there has been a strong trend of Vittoria tyres failing in the pro peloton.

I think you'd be mad not to run the Z30 NSW tyre made specifically for the wheel now one exists. The benefits extend far beyond the safety of being designed for the rim and being tested by Zipp.
Well, I'm a bit mad in general! Ha ha. Yes, I think the smart move here is to remove the Vittorias. I can use them on a different bike. I don't want to risk a life-altering crash. I'll give them a try on the Pinarello.
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

I have 28 corsa pro on my enve ... but 2.3 are 21IW.. so not worried
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EtoDemerzel
Posts: 362
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by EtoDemerzel

LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2024 7:20 pm
counterintelligence wrote:I signed up for this forum after reading this thread. My last wheelset was the Zipp 303FC (w/ 32mm Conti 5000 S TR). I am currently on Enve 4.5s (w 30mm Goodyear EF1R - which by the way were super hard to install and hold air better than any tubeless setup I've ever had). I haven't had a blowout on either pair of hookless wheels but given how closely LedZeppelin007 followed the hookless "rules" I have my doubts now where I didn't before. When the other reported blowoffs happened I wondered about tires out of ETRTO spec (like 28s on 25mm internal), use of inserts, running too much pressure etc. Seeing this happen given perfect compliance with the rules + documentation from tirewiz etc gives me pause.

I just bought a new hooked wheelset and I've almost made up my mind to sell the Enve 4.5s. Looking forward to the result of Zipp's investigation for more perspective. Glad you're ok, LedZeppelin007.
I really appreciate that, man.

If you want my honest opinion now that I’ve had a week after the blow-off to mull everything over, here it is:

1) I’ve put thousands of miles on hookless wheels and have defended them and their existence online

2) This is the only significant issue I’ve had with them (granted, it’s extremely significant)

3) I can’t prove that the fault of the blowoff was the 353s or their hookless design, although I strongly believe that to be the case

4) I will feel somewhat safer on hooked rims moving forward

5) I suspect that there is something about the design of the 353 that makes it more prone to blowoffs, but I’m not an engineer and I have no proof. This is based on my own experience, the data that I have from that ride, the number of incidents I’ve heard with 353s being involved (a good proportion of them, despite likely making up only a small amount of hookless wheels being used), the unexplained weight increase last year (perhaps trying to address a problem?), and speculation from other riders that the rim is very flexy from the factory.

6) After talking extensively with Zipp and Enve, I would consider riding hookless again. I’ve ridden 4.5s extensively and have a lot of confidence in them. I won’t ever ride 353s again, though.


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I'm also curious why Zipp engineers say the NSW's are not recommended for races like Paris Roubaix and Strade Bianchi nor gravel, even though there is nothing in the literature or specs to say this is the case.
Zipp sponsored gravel riders use FC's, I believe.

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