Tadej Pogacar’s Giro Crash: Final Nail in the Hookless Coffin?

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aeroisnteverything
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by aeroisnteverything

LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 6:03 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 3:01 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Ah, see I wanted to run 28s to measure 30mm, but decided against it given the failures. I've got Z30 NSWs on the way, so pleased to hear your speed feedback!

Z35 SW should be a good option if you want a wider training tyre but stick with the bespoke tyre, I presume that'll be a similar size to a traditional 32mm tyre.

I'll be sticking with the rim specific tyres given the uncertainty, but if you do decide to go back to other tyres, I reckon it's best to avoid those Pirellis and Vittorias which have some annecdotal issues associated with them.
Here’s a terrible snapshot of them on my bike.

The only other complaint I had about the was that they smelled terrible when out of the box, lol. My god.

Also, FYI, they weighed 270g.

Image


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Pleased to hear they are light as well!

While it may be worth taking with a grain of salt given mywindsock can't distinguish between rolling resistance and CdA improvements, what's the delta you've observed on mywindsock?
It was significant. Keep in mind, I was trying to reserve energy on downhills and coasting as much as I could and there were numerous sections where I was in a group.

That being said, MyWindsock has always been reasonably close to the numbers I’ve observed from my Aerosensor.

I’m generally in the .35 range. Yesterday, I was at .27.


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From everything we know about component contribution to drag, there is absolutely zero chance that wheels explain that drop in computed CdA. I have seen numbers like 3-5% cda reduction switching from shallow to deep aero wheels, which would be a drop from .35 to .335. The delta between slowest and fastest wheels in this data set https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/wi ... e-fastest/ is 0.004.

mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

cleanneon98 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:41 pm
Also would be great to see big orange stickers that say "STOP READ THIS" on hookless wheels going over pressure limits and recommendations, and for tires too.
My boxed Zipp wheels literally had this.

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cleanneon98
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by cleanneon98

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2024 2:58 pm
cleanneon98 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:41 pm
Also would be great to see big orange stickers that say "STOP READ THIS" on hookless wheels going over pressure limits and recommendations, and for tires too.
My boxed Zipp wheels literally had this.
That's good, but what about when the wheels come pre equipped on bikes?
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mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

I'm not sure, I've never bought a bike with hookless wheels, but bikes I have bought normally have all the third party instructions in a pack.

Trouble is, people so rarely read instructions. So perhaps you're right, maybe it needs more overt messaging from manufacturers

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2024 2:30 pm

From everything we know about component contribution to drag, there is absolutely zero chance that wheels explain that drop in computed CdA. I have seen numbers like 3-5% cda reduction switching from shallow to deep aero wheels, which would be a drop from .35 to .335. The delta between slowest and fastest wheels in this data set https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/wi ... e-fastest/ is 0.004.
To put it in laymen’s terms. .35m^2 is an average adult male rider sitting very upright while .27 is a semi-decent amateur race position. At 300W, it’s like a 3.4km/h difference, which is absolutely massive.

LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

For the record, I certainly wasn’t suggesting that new tires accounted for the estimated reduction in estimated CdA. That was definitely some drafting and some aggressive riding.

I will say the interface between the Goodyear Vector 30 and the 353 is extremely smooth.


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EtoDemerzel
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by EtoDemerzel

cleanneon98 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2024 3:04 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2024 2:58 pm
cleanneon98 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:41 pm
Also would be great to see big orange stickers that say "STOP READ THIS" on hookless wheels going over pressure limits and recommendations, and for tires too.
My boxed Zipp wheels literally had this.
That's good, but what about when the wheels come pre equipped on bikes?
100% agree. That was one of the big things TOUR said. The entire labelling and education to consumers is wholly lacking and rife for misunderstanding hookless.
Very poor and confusing.
They recommended standardized clear labelling on hookless tires and/or methods to clearly show hookless as a different system and a way for consumers to understand this.

goodboyr
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by goodboyr

Where is the lbs in all of this? They don't tell people about their Di2 systems charging and operation, their hydraulics and the need to periodically flush and bleed, clean discs and pads, So why would they explain this to them. I think this is the industries big problem. LBS that think their only role is to move product out the door.

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EtoDemerzel
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by EtoDemerzel

For sure, the LBS holds responsibility for the sales they make. However, that doesn't preclude the responsibility of wheel and tire manufacturers to clearly label, as this is a major safety issue.

But, if they come up with some type of labelling or coding system that is easy to follow- that would mean they are responsible for the accuracy and validity of it. Something i'm sure they don't want.
If they had this type of labelling in place, there would already be recalls.

LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

So some more info. Zipp have the wheels and are evaluating them and the tires now. They said they will share the information with me when they get it.

I had mentioned that the last-gen hoods really hurt my hands. As a gesture of goodwill, they are trying to send me a pair of new E1 controllers as well as my TyreWiz units back.

I can’t say they haven’t been incredibly helpful with service.


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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

That's great service and they seem to want to make sure you are happy. Hope you get the E1's.
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LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

wheelbuilder wrote:That's great service and they seem to want to make sure you are happy. Hope you get the E1's.
Agreed fully

They did mention it’s a rather extraordinary case, so they wanted to go the extra mile. Good on them.

I hope they can glean something from this if it is, in fact, their rim that is the issue.

I also want to self-validate as a former proponent of hookless tech: I was looking at the tire/wheel interface again tonight between the Vector 30 NSWs and the 353s and it is ::chefs kiss:: On my Hollowgram wheels, 29c tires lightbulb a little, even on 21mm internal. I’m sure the air reattaches (they are fat externally at like 32-33mm widest point), but I imagine that bump causes a little turbulence.

I’m not an aerodynamicist, but that interface has got to save a watt or two.


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rollinslow
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by rollinslow

They are going to the extreme of kindness because they realize how serious this issue is for their business and the fact it is public now.
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mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

rollinslow wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:34 am
They are going to the extreme of kindness because they realize how serious this issue is for their business and the fact it is public now.
I'm not convinced.

This forum is a tiny corner of the internet and largely already strongly averse to hookless and Zipp wheels.

Even so, them giving this guy a set of levers isn't going to change anyone else's minds.

This is all about making the customer happy.

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toxin
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by toxin

Of course, but if he wanted he could make a much bigger shitshow for them with a couple emails to some publications and youtubers

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