Tadej Pogacar’s Giro Crash: Final Nail in the Hookless Coffin?

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

counterintelligence wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2024 5:22 am
The person recording the video then reached out to the wheel manufacturer, and based on the mfg's testing they only recommend use of one single tire on their hookless wheels.
:P , yup, that's the bike industry for ya'.

And for all the hookless shills, here is a new advantage of hookless rims: the beefy rim edge of hookless rims provides an ideal surface for the beads of all the tires that blow off to mate up with and re-seal. Try that with hooked!
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

So, many updates on my situation. The LBS kind of screwed me. SRAM said to me that they were willing to have the LBS exchange my incoming replacement 353s for 454s or another wheel of comparable value. I had essentially decided to change them for Enve 4.5 Innerdrives. The LBS didn’t have the new ones and so ordered them for me. I am a pretty straightforward person, so I believed that the basics of the deal was clear: the 353s for the Enves. Well, the Enves came in and the LBS wanted the incoming 353s and $1300 for the Enves. Further discussion resulted in no headway and so I decided to simply take the 353s, tires, and rotors and sell either them, or the full bike.

I also knew that I had an event for which I really wanted to ride my race bike and I didn’t have time to confer with SRAM for clarification on what they could do with the LBS.

I was able to complete it today (103 mile Gran Fondo with 9,300ft of climbing) with OK results.

Some notes:

-The Goodyear Vector Fitment NSW 30c or wherever it’s called is OK. As someone else mentioned, it’s definitely a 28c tire that is being called a 30c. It does provide a very seamless transition to the rim, but looks and feels quite narrow. Measured exactly 30mm when first mounted. Grip was average, rolling resistance seemed decent.

-I think it’s a little shady to “circumvent” the new ETRTO recommendations by labeling a tire based on the expected mounted size on a very specific rim.

-Other than the freehub mechanism needing a little oil, wheels were fine on the ride

-The front wheel did come out of true with a mounted and inflated tire (to 60psi).

-The wheelset weighs 1290g with tape and valves installed


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mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 12:37 pm
-I think it’s a little shady to “circumvent” the new ETRTO recommendations by labeling a tire based on the expected mounted size on a very specific rim.
I think the recommendation/standards almost become irrelevant when a tyre is bespoke for the rim. Standards are mostly about interoptability.

Remember this tyre has been tested with your rim to a greater degree than a standards compliant one.

Interesting that your wheelset weighs 1290 with valves and tape, goes to show that Zipp may have been telling the truth when they said the higher quoted weights were just about quoting the higher of two variations of the wheels in that are produced across two factories.
Last edited by mikehhhhhhh on Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 12:37 pm
-I think it’s a little shady to “circumvent” the new ETRTO recommendations by labeling a tire based on the expected mounted size on a very specific rim.
I think the recommendation/standards almost become irrelevant when a tyre is bespoke for the rim. Standards are mostly about interotability.

Remember this tyre has been tested with your rim to a greater degree than a standards compliant one.

Interesting that your wheelset weighs 1290 with valves and tape, goes to show that Zipp may have been telling the truth when they said the higher quoted weights were just about quoting the higher of two variations of the wheels in that are produced across two factories.
The tires arrived before the wheels at the LBS. the LBS gave me the 353s they had in stock, so I wonder if they predate the weight gain. IDK.

I will say this, the interface between the Goodyears and the 353s is perfect from an aero standpoint.

I also don’t want to feel beholden to run a specific set of tires and would prefer to run something wider for training.

On the other hand, the 353s have never felt faster, and MyWindsock backs that up.


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cleanneon98
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by cleanneon98

Very disappointing, sorry you are dealing with this
TREK Madone Gen 7 SLR - 7.43kg
TREK Fuel EX Gen 5 - overbuilt and overweight

mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:16 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 12:37 pm
-I think it’s a little shady to “circumvent” the new ETRTO recommendations by labeling a tire based on the expected mounted size on a very specific rim.
I think the recommendation/standards almost become irrelevant when a tyre is bespoke for the rim. Standards are mostly about interotability.

Remember this tyre has been tested with your rim to a greater degree than a standards compliant one.

Interesting that your wheelset weighs 1290 with valves and tape, goes to show that Zipp may have been telling the truth when they said the higher quoted weights were just about quoting the higher of two variations of the wheels in that are produced across two factories.
The tires arrived before the wheels at the LBS. the LBS gave me the 353s they had in stock, so I wonder if they predate the weight gain. IDK.

I will say this, the interface between the Goodyears and the 353s is perfect from an aero standpoint.

I also don’t want to feel beholden to run a specific set of tires and would prefer to run something wider for training.

On the other hand, the 353s have never felt faster, and MyWindsock backs that up.


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Ah, see I wanted to run 28s to measure 30mm, but decided against it given the failures. I've got Z30 NSWs on the way, so pleased to hear your speed feedback!

Z35 SW should be a good option if you want a wider training tyre but stick with the bespoke tyre, I presume that'll be a similar size to a traditional 32mm tyre.

I'll be sticking with the rim specific tyres given the uncertainty, but if you do decide to go back to other tyres, I reckon it's best to avoid those Pirellis and Vittorias which have some annecdotal issues associated with them.

LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

cleanneon98 wrote:Very disappointing, sorry you are dealing with this
Yes, it’s not great. It feels like everyone (SRAM, LBS) has an agenda. The worst thing is that I believe I would’ve been even more screwed without all of the evidence.

SRAM has provided good customer service, and yet, somehow, I’ve ended up exactly where I started minus the TyreWiz system that got shipped to them.

I had preemptively gotten some Enve Raceday 29c tires for the event yesterday and have test ridden them on my Roadmachine this week. They are amazing (can’t speak to their durability or puncture resistance, but they are super fast, ultra grippy, and surprisingly supple). But, there was no way I was going to run them on the 353s out of fear of them blowing off.


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LedZeppelin007
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by LedZeppelin007

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:16 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 12:37 pm
-I think it’s a little shady to “circumvent” the new ETRTO recommendations by labeling a tire based on the expected mounted size on a very specific rim.
I think the recommendation/standards almost become irrelevant when a tyre is bespoke for the rim. Standards are mostly about interotability.

Remember this tyre has been tested with your rim to a greater degree than a standards compliant one.

Interesting that your wheelset weighs 1290 with valves and tape, goes to show that Zipp may have been telling the truth when they said the higher quoted weights were just about quoting the higher of two variations of the wheels in that are produced across two factories.
The tires arrived before the wheels at the LBS. the LBS gave me the 353s they had in stock, so I wonder if they predate the weight gain. IDK.

I will say this, the interface between the Goodyears and the 353s is perfect from an aero standpoint.

I also don’t want to feel beholden to run a specific set of tires and would prefer to run something wider for training.

On the other hand, the 353s have never felt faster, and MyWindsock backs that up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Ah, see I wanted to run 28s to measure 30mm, but decided against it given the failures. I've got Z30 NSWs on the way, so pleased to hear your speed feedback!

Z35 SW should be a good option if you want a wider training tyre but stick with the bespoke tyre, I presume that'll be a similar size to a traditional 32mm tyre.

I'll be sticking with the rim specific tyres given the uncertainty, but if you do decide to go back to other tyres, I reckon it's best to avoid those Pirellis and Vittorias which have some annecdotal issues associated with them.
Here’s a terrible snapshot of them on my bike.

The only other complaint I had about the was that they smelled terrible when out of the box, lol. My god.

Also, FYI, they weighed 270g.

Image


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cleanneon98
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by cleanneon98

I'd be selling the wheels and finding a new LBS. This whole you need to run special mislabeled tires in order to not have a potentially life threatening situation on the bike thing is not just putting me off from ZIPP but from buying anything under the SRAM umbrella
TREK Madone Gen 7 SLR - 7.43kg
TREK Fuel EX Gen 5 - overbuilt and overweight

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:28 pm
... I reckon it's best to avoid those Pirellis and Vittorias which have some annecdotal issues associated with them.
FYI a video of a tire blowing off does not qualify as anecdotal.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

toxin
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by toxin

You absolutely should get your tirewiz back or a new one. You have to pester somebody about this

mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 3:01 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:16 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
I think the recommendation/standards almost become irrelevant when a tyre is bespoke for the rim. Standards are mostly about interotability.

Remember this tyre has been tested with your rim to a greater degree than a standards compliant one.

Interesting that your wheelset weighs 1290 with valves and tape, goes to show that Zipp may have been telling the truth when they said the higher quoted weights were just about quoting the higher of two variations of the wheels in that are produced across two factories.
The tires arrived before the wheels at the LBS. the LBS gave me the 353s they had in stock, so I wonder if they predate the weight gain. IDK.

I will say this, the interface between the Goodyears and the 353s is perfect from an aero standpoint.

I also don’t want to feel beholden to run a specific set of tires and would prefer to run something wider for training.

On the other hand, the 353s have never felt faster, and MyWindsock backs that up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Ah, see I wanted to run 28s to measure 30mm, but decided against it given the failures. I've got Z30 NSWs on the way, so pleased to hear your speed feedback!

Z35 SW should be a good option if you want a wider training tyre but stick with the bespoke tyre, I presume that'll be a similar size to a traditional 32mm tyre.

I'll be sticking with the rim specific tyres given the uncertainty, but if you do decide to go back to other tyres, I reckon it's best to avoid those Pirellis and Vittorias which have some annecdotal issues associated with them.
Here’s a terrible snapshot of them on my bike.

The only other complaint I had about the was that they smelled terrible when out of the box, lol. My god.

Also, FYI, they weighed 270g.

Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Pleased to hear they are light as well!

While it may be worth taking with a grain of salt given mywindsock can't distinguish between rolling resistance and CdA improvements, what's the delta you've observed on mywindsock?

LedZeppelin007
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 3:01 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:16 pm
The tires arrived before the wheels at the LBS. the LBS gave me the 353s they had in stock, so I wonder if they predate the weight gain. IDK.

I will say this, the interface between the Goodyears and the 353s is perfect from an aero standpoint.

I also don’t want to feel beholden to run a specific set of tires and would prefer to run something wider for training.

On the other hand, the 353s have never felt faster, and MyWindsock backs that up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Ah, see I wanted to run 28s to measure 30mm, but decided against it given the failures. I've got Z30 NSWs on the way, so pleased to hear your speed feedback!

Z35 SW should be a good option if you want a wider training tyre but stick with the bespoke tyre, I presume that'll be a similar size to a traditional 32mm tyre.

I'll be sticking with the rim specific tyres given the uncertainty, but if you do decide to go back to other tyres, I reckon it's best to avoid those Pirellis and Vittorias which have some annecdotal issues associated with them.
Here’s a terrible snapshot of them on my bike.

The only other complaint I had about the was that they smelled terrible when out of the box, lol. My god.

Also, FYI, they weighed 270g.

Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Pleased to hear they are light as well!

While it may be worth taking with a grain of salt given mywindsock can't distinguish between rolling resistance and CdA improvements, what's the delta you've observed on mywindsock?
It was significant. Keep in mind, I was trying to reserve energy on downhills and coasting as much as I could and there were numerous sections where I was in a group.

That being said, MyWindsock has always been reasonably close to the numbers I’ve observed from my Aerosensor.

I’m generally in the .35 range. Yesterday, I was at .27.


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mikehhhhhhh
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by mikehhhhhhh

Any time in a group will reduce it significantly, I think it's impossible to make any conclusions where you aren't solo for the entirety.

by Weenie


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cleanneon98
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by cleanneon98

One thing is for certain I think the manufacturers of tires and wheels and the companies selling the bikes should all make a big effort to educate the consumer. I decided to reach out to someone I follow on Strava because I noticed a set of ZIPP 404 on her new Canyon Aeroad and asked hey do you know they are hookless what kind of pressures are you running. Turns out that she was runnig 85-90psi in her 28mm GP5k STR and the only reason she even had a concern was due to the pressures she skidded on some gravel because the tire had no give. I sent her a link to the Sram pressure calculator which for her weight recommends 57/61psi

I know bike shops don't educate buyers on this, so figured Canyon was not sending a disclaimer with their bikes in the box (but maybe they should). Also would be great to see big orange stickers that say "STOP READ THIS" on hookless wheels going over pressure limits and recommendations, and for tires too. For the continentals for example, 73psi is the max and a lot of people who are buying new bikes aren't upgrading from last year's bike but ones from maybe 5 years ago, likely with rim brakes and narrow rims/tires where 73psi was considered "low" so they stick with old habits not knowing any better. I think the manufacturers and bike companies have some duty to keep riders safe and they're just not doing enough

Now I've gotta reach out to a few other people I know are running hookless wheels, because if someone I know I could have talked to has a crash I will feel awful having not said something
TREK Madone Gen 7 SLR - 7.43kg
TREK Fuel EX Gen 5 - overbuilt and overweight

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