Tadej Pogacar’s Giro Crash: Final Nail in the Hookless Coffin?

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bikercr
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts

by bikercr

The ultra-slow-motion, close-up replay of Tadej’s front wheel tire puncture and low-speed crash may be the beginning of the end for hookless wheels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt9VQ3XmHmI

Why? Never before have we seen such obvious evidence of tubeless tire/hookless wheel separation directly causing a crash. In the replay video, you can see the open gap between the tire bead and rim bead allowing purple tubeless sealant to spray out, lubricating the pavement and causing the tire tread to slip out causing the crash.

The UAE Emirates team uses ENVE hookless wheels. Hookless rim beads do nothing to prevent tire separation during a blowout, especially while leaning or cornering. This is because the absence of a physical hook allows the tire to easily slip out of the rim without lateral inflation pressure. Conversely, hooked wheels, especially in combo with a foam insert, hold the tire more reliably on the rim, preventing roll-off and loss of sealant out the gap. You can read about my own recent experience with a front tire blow-out here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175385

The pro cycling season has seen devastating crashes of top riders this Spring (Vingegaard, Roglic and Evenepoel), severely impacting the competition so critical to cycling’s popularity. If there is any SIMPLE way to decrease the likelihood of a crash after a tire blowout, it’s totally worth doing.

The Thomas DeGendt front blowout, wheel failure, tire roll-off and foam insert extrusion this Spring while riding a Zipp hookless wheel, has prompted an ongoing major reevaluation of hookless wheel safety in the pro peloton. Unfortunately, inhibiting the DeGendt crash investigation is the absence of video evidence of what precisely caused the wheel failure and crash. There’s no view of any hole, rock or anything else shattering the rim and leading to tire and insert ejection.

Yesterday’s Giro crash is totally different: clear evidence of separation of a tubeless tire from a hookless rim, causing sealant leakage, slippage and a crash. Watch the video a few times until you are convinced this was the actual crash mechanism. This crash happened to a multimillion-dollar athlete, arguably the best rider of this generation and potentially of all-time.

Low speed crashes are notorious for causing serious and even season-ending injuries. That’s because the force vectors in a low-speed crash are straight down into the pavement. Tadej was EXTREMELY lucky in the 2024 Giro Stage 2 not to have suffered a wrist fracture, broken collarbone, or a concussion.

If Tadej was riding a hooked-bead wheel, particularly in concert with a foam insert (that makes tire roll-off almost impossible), the event would have been nothing more than a flat tire he could ride, lean and slowly turn on until his team car caught up with him rather than a heart-stopping crash with the potential for disaster.

I predict that this rare video of the precise crash forensics involving a hookless wheel will eventually lead to the UCI banning such wheels in competition. Because hookless is a boon only for wheel manufacturers, a cheaper way to make wheels without passing the savings on to the end user, and an unnecessary danger to the rider without any real advantage, Tadej’s crash video may be the beginning of the end for hookless.

[Please understand that I mean no offense to owners of hookless wheels! I know there's a lot of emotion surrounding this issue and I'm sure hookless wheels can be safely used by the average road cyclist. I'm only addressing professional road racing and the desire to keep precious athletes as safe as possible in a very dangerous sport].
S-Works Tarmac SL6 (2019) w/Campy SR EPS v4 12-speed hydro;
S-Works Tarmac SL3 (2010) w/Campy SR 12-speed mechanical rim

toxin
Posts: 904
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

as a hookless hater myself, just no, his tire came off cause he rode a flat into a corner, if he had an insert he probably would've been fine regardless of hookless or not

by Weenie


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bikercr
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts

by bikercr

Check this out. No turning involved, hookless with an insert: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech ... -rims-safe
S-Works Tarmac SL6 (2019) w/Campy SR EPS v4 12-speed hydro;
S-Works Tarmac SL3 (2010) w/Campy SR 12-speed mechanical rim

MikeD
Posts: 1042
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

I think the pros should go back to tubulars if they want to continue riding on a flat tire. Tires still can come off the rim even with an insert.

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C36
Posts: 2552
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Well, I am quite vocal against HL on the road (even if I have a pair... just inherit it on a preowned bike and I moved to to my commuter bike) and I can not blame HL or TL for a crash under a completely deflated tire.
Now could a tire stay more on the rim, yes, but that is not really a feature (well even if Mavic did included such feature on their attempt to make a road UST std)...

jfranci3
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:21 pm

by jfranci3

I don't see what hookless has to do with this. Clearly you're trying to stir the pot here. He was riding with a zero pressure tire under control, turned, and fell on his face. Tire stayed on.

The insert is the reason why he was able to keep moving and the reason why it rolled over so agressively.

bikercr
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts

by bikercr

jfranci3 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 4:18 pm
I don't see what hookless has to do with this. Clearly you're trying to stir the pot here. He was riding with a zero pressure tire under control, turned, and fell on his face. Tire stayed on.

The insert is the reason why he was able to keep moving and the reason why it rolled over so agressively.
Please check out my other post. Link above. Then you'll understand why I'm not "stirring the pot".
S-Works Tarmac SL6 (2019) w/Campy SR EPS v4 12-speed hydro;
S-Works Tarmac SL3 (2010) w/Campy SR 12-speed mechanical rim

toxin
Posts: 904
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

bikercr wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 4:11 pm
Check this out. No turning involved, hookless with an insert: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech ... -rims-safe
there's like a 20 page thread that was spawned from this and it's not relevant in this case anyway

fatpinarellorider
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:30 am

by fatpinarellorider

I think he would have crashed exactly the same way if that was a clincher tire setup. :?
You can't really turn on a totally flat wheel.

Having said that, 70psi is a lousy maximum pressure for those of us that are old enough to have started out on 20c width tyres.

bikercr
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts

by bikercr

<<there's like a 20 page thread that was spawned from this and it's not relevant in this case anyway>>

Only relevance is in answer to the claim that an insert will prevent tire separation with hookless:

"if he had an insert he probably would've been fine regardless of hookless or not"
Last edited by bikercr on Mon May 06, 2024 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
S-Works Tarmac SL6 (2019) w/Campy SR EPS v4 12-speed hydro;
S-Works Tarmac SL3 (2010) w/Campy SR 12-speed mechanical rim

bikercr
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts

by bikercr

S-Works Tarmac SL6 (2019) w/Campy SR EPS v4 12-speed hydro;
S-Works Tarmac SL3 (2010) w/Campy SR 12-speed mechanical rim

bikercr
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2023 1:06 pm
Location: Massachusetts

by bikercr

fatpinarellorider wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 4:30 pm
I think he would have crashed exactly the same way if that was a clincher tire setup. :?
You can't really turn on a totally flat wheel.

Having said that, 70psi is a lousy maximum pressure for those of us that are old enough to have started out on 20c width tyres.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175385
S-Works Tarmac SL6 (2019) w/Campy SR EPS v4 12-speed hydro;
S-Works Tarmac SL3 (2010) w/Campy SR 12-speed mechanical rim

fatpinarellorider
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:30 am

by fatpinarellorider

Yeah I was just reading that thread.

I only have have one hookless setup (that I am running with tubes).
All my other wheels are hooked clinchers (with one set of tubulars).

Don't get me wrong, I probably would not buy hookless again.
Sometimes it's good to try new things... just so you can say you tried it...

Like for me, tubeless setups. I was very late to that party.
I can't be bothered with them. Even for MTB.
I'm thinking of just going back to tubed (on all bikes).
I just don't like having to deal with liquid where it's not strictly necessary. :noidea:

Does hookless really save that much weight if you then have to use a 20 gram liner? :noidea:
Besides, are not tubular shaped rim profiles even easier to make than hookless rim shapes? Well yes they are! :mrgreen:

apr46
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

I dislike the hookless trend, but this is the result of riding a flat clincher.

Hooks do pretty much nothing once the tire is flat. There is also a lot of experience and testing with MTBs that show tire hooks do not prevent burping at low pressures, they are a secondary safety feature for higher pressures.

by Weenie


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toxin
Posts: 904
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

bikercr wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 4:31 pm
<<there's like a 20 page thread that was spawned from this and it's not relevant in this case anyway>>

Only relevance is in answer to the claim that an insert will prevent tire separation with hookless:

"if he had an insert he probably would've been fine regardless of hookless or not"
Just not comparable scenarios at all lmao

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