105 Di2 and Dura-Ace Parts Swap

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TheBelgian
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by TheBelgian

Eterna7m wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:34 pm
johnpuga1982 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:59 pm
I purchased a Cannondale SuperSix Evo with 105 Di2 and I switched everything to Dura-Ace Di2 with no problems. I started with the front derailleur, then the rear derailleur, then the crank, and then finished with the leavers and brakes when I installed a one piece handlebar. The only "issue" I ran into was having to setup the bike as a new bike in the E-Tube app when changing over parts. The parts didn't talk to each other until I delete everything and started all over. I had to do this with each part. So I did it three times. Battery and brake lines are the the same.

If you replace your handlebar, you may need to purchase replacement Olives and Barbs for the leavers.

Also, call me crazy, but I think 105 Di2 is better than Ultegra Di2. If you upgrade your chain, rear cassette, brake rotors, and brake pads to the Dura-Ace versions you'll be pretty happy. I did this before I even thought of going full Dura-Ace. Fairly cheap upgrades.
On my propel my set up is Ultegra shifters and derailleurs, dura ace cassette, chain, chainrings and w/ calipers and rotors.
IME switching from this to my other fully 105 di2 specced bike the only thing I notice and miss are probably the hood top switches.
Besides looks I think the only thing I really "need" are Ultegra STIs and maybe FD.
You don't notice different in chain/cassette? I read that the biggest gains for 105 setups can be made by using a DA chain and cassette, for shifting smoothness.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

johnpuga1982 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:59 pm
Also, call me crazy, but I think 105 Di2 is better than Ultegra Di2.
Do you notice any differences in shifting between the two? Ultegra has HG+ whereas the 105 is advertised as to only having HG, not HG+. I currently have D.A. but considering the 11-36 cassette, and was wondering if I should change the cage on my D.A. to Ultegra or get a 105 RD instead. I don't want to lose shifting quality so I'm only doing the change to 11-36 if the shifting quality can be preserved.

Just a point of clarification on the cage swap. D.A. locks out the two smallest cogs, not just the small-small combo. So I don't think the shorter D.A. cage will work on an Ultegra RD if one is running a 11-34 cassette.

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johnpuga1982
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by johnpuga1982

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:13 pm
Do you notice any differences in shifting between the two? Ultegra has HG+ whereas the 105 is advertised as to only having HG, not HG+. I currently have D.A. but considering the 11-36 cassette, and was wondering if I should change the cage on my D.A. to Ultegra or get a 105 RD instead. I don't want to lose shifting quality so I'm only doing the change to 11-36 if the shifting quality can be preserved.

Just a point of clarification on the cage swap. D.A. locks out the two smallest cogs, not just the small-small combo. So I don't think the shorter D.A. cage will work on an Ultegra RD if one is running a 11-34 cassette.
Going from 105 Di2 to Dura-Ace Di2, Dura-Ace shifting is better. Is it $X,000 amount better, not at all. It does feel smoother and faster. I indexed some gears on an Ultegra Di2 R8150 bike this past weekend and the Ultegra groupset seems "cheaper" to me than Dura-Ace and 105. It seems flimsy and not as premium. It may be lighter than 105 Di2, but it feels dated. I think the 105 Di2 shifting is better, probably due to being a new design. I've heard other people say the 105 Di2 front derailleur is the previous Dura-Ace derailleur, but I've never looked into it.

A few months ago I purchased a Tacx Neo 2T trainer and I put the 11-34 105 cassette on it. In that configuration the 105 cassette did not feel as good as the Dura-Ace. It was pretty noticable. Currently, I have an Ultegra 11-30 on the trainer and it feels better than the 105 cassette, but not as good as the Dura-Ace version. I would say taking all things into consideration, the 105 11-36 cassette may be weakest link in your use case.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Hmm. Switching between different sized cassettes will require changing the B-screw setting. I wonder if the difference that you are feeling are due to B-screw not being set properly for the cassette.

johnpuga1982
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by johnpuga1982

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:54 am
Hmm. Switching between different sized cassettes will require changing the B-screw setting. I wonder if the difference that you are feeling are due to B-screw not being set properly for the cassette.
I did not make any adjustments to the B-screw when using the 105 cassette on the trainer. I mostly left it in the 10th ring and used erg mode. But going from the Dura-Ace to Ultegra 11-30 you do feel a difference. Going from Dura-Ace to 105 you feel a bigger difference. Over all it's not huge, but it is something. Is it worth $X00 dollars, not really. But if you can compare all three, there is a difference. It just depends on what is acceptable to you.
Last edited by johnpuga1982 on Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheBelgian
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by TheBelgian

If you want HG+ just buy an Ultegra or DA cassette + chain. I don't think it's related to the derailleur.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I already have a 11-34 DA cassette. I want a 11-36 cassette with HG+.


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johnpuga1982
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by johnpuga1982

Is there an after market 11-36 cassette that interest you? Or maybe mixing the 105 11-36 casette with the Dura-Ace 11-34 casette will solve your need? Where you get the bigger rings of the 105 cassette and the smaller rings of the Dura-Ace cassette.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Yeah. I already have a brand new 11-34 D.A. cassette to use as a donor cassette. Only the last three cogs are different but the last five cogs are unified as a cluster. I expect a quite hefty weight gain as the D.A. cassette is quite light. I like the larger range cassette not just for climbing but also riding on the big ring. It lets me minimize the number of front shifts on rolling terrain.

Not wanting to take a chance on shifting quality I decided on a D.A. RD for my new bike. I need to replace the stock cage with a longer cage, probably one from an Ultegra. I do have a spare GRX RD to use as a donor but I think the cage on that one is probably too long. The nice thing about the D.A. RD is that it locks out the two smallest cogs. So technically I just need a new cage that is as long as the Ultegra cage to run a 11-36.

My current bike has 48/31 chainrings on a P2M gravel PM along with a D.A. 11-34 group. I'm wanting the same 48/31 chainrings and PM but on a 11-36 cassette on my new bike. It'll be nice to be able to ride just on the big ring until the big climbs.

Whipit
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by Whipit

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:53 pm
All 12s Shimano Di2 road stuff is cross compatible. Except for very rare edge cases 11s stuff is not compatible with 12s.

The hoods inner molding might be a bit different for 105 due to not having top bottons that the higher stuff has even though the outer shape is the same.

In terms of value and performace for Shimano Di2 12s:
Shifters: 105 if you dont care about servo wave top bottons or satellite shifters, Ultegra if you do. Dura-Ace shifter clamps is an ok $/g upgrade. Dura-Ace is very expensive $/g.
Calipers: 105 or Dura-Ace. 105 is the same weight as Ultegra. Dura-Ace is very nearly the lightest caliper and 1 part.
Rotors: Galfer if you can. Ultegra level if sticking Shimano. Dura-Ace level is the same weight as Ulegra level but easier to clean the glossy inner finish. 105 level have no special features so I'd look elsewhere.
Crankset: All are heavier now due to recall mittigations. Ditch the crankarms if you can but the rings are the best shifting you will get on Shimano drivetrain. You can pair Shimano chainrings with carbon crankarms such as Red D1 with adapter spiders. Ultegra chainrings are like 5g heavier than Dura-Ace and both are hollow but I've never seen photos of them failing. 105 chainrings are solid and heavier.
FD: Ultegra. 105 is previous gen tech rebadged and Ultegra isnt much more expensive and is good $/g over 105. Dura-Ace is horrible $/g. If I had a 105 bike this is the first non wear part I'd upgrade.
RD: All have their place. Use a direct mount hanger if you can. 105 is great and has the longest cage. Ultegra is decent $/g upgrade at current market rates. Dura-Ace drops more weight but is fairly expensive still but better value $/g than shifters or FD. Some people sell their Dura-Ace cages after sidegrading to OSPW and you can use those cages on other Shimano RD for a decent $/g upgrade if you are not using a 11-36 cassette.
Chain: Dura-Ace level. Better longevity and decent $/g. If your bike comes with Ultegra level wear through it but if you have 105 level I'd just bin it.
Cassette: All have their place. 105 is the only Shimano option if you need 11-36 but you are losing HG+. Ultegra is a good balance and gets you HG+. Dura-Ace cassettes offer the best $/g in all Dura-Ace level components upgrades so should be the first Dura-Ace upgrade to consider after the chain.
Battery: There is currently only one battery compatible with 12s. Due to shifter design it must be wired to rim brake shifters and due to 105 design it cannot be wired to the 105 shifters except for performing firware updates.
Just spent a while searching to find this summary. Can remember reading it and thinking "I should bookmark that"

Thanks!

OtterSpace
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by OtterSpace

Whipit wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:09 pm
Just spent a while searching to find this summary. Can remember reading it and thinking "I should bookmark that"

Thanks!
I'm glad you found it useful. :beerchug:

The only slight things I'd add now is that the recently released SRAM Red E1 crankarms save around 28g over D1 which is likely decent $/g once supply hits in volume. Also GRX 12s Di2 just came out. For road riders likely the only potentially interesting GRX item is the RD which adds something like 40g from the clutch. Clutches in road RD is a stark difference between SRAM & Shimano and one of the places where I personally think SRAM is ahead both in the ubiquity of their damping and friction & weight of their deployment. The GRX RD also locks out the smallest two cogs for small-small to guarantee compliance with their teeth drop spec which is a bit annoying.

Also a slight change regarding rotors as I've been focusing on braking a lot recently. I still think Galfer are the best blend of price, weight, and function. However, if you really push technical desents it just isn't as good as heavier rotors. Most road riders would be fine with 160f/140r galfer but think about the riding you do and if you do frequent technical 20%+ desents consider another heavier option for the front rotor for better performance. Shimano also claims that their Dura-Ace level black coating helps thermal performance over the uncoated Ultegra level rotors that weigh the same.
paint.PNG

Jaisen
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by Jaisen

OtterSpace wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 5:40 pm
Whipit wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:09 pm
Just spent a while searching to find this summary. Can remember reading it and thinking "I should bookmark that"

Thanks!
I'm glad you found it useful. :beerchug:

The only slight things I'd add now is that the recently released SRAM Red E1 crankarms save around 28g over D1 which is likely decent $/g once supply hits in volume. Also GRX 12s Di2 just came out. For road riders likely the only potentially interesting GRX item is the RD which adds something like 40g from the clutch. Clutches in road RD is a stark difference between SRAM & Shimano and one of the places where I personally think SRAM is ahead both in the ubiquity of their damping and friction & weight of their deployment. The GRX RD also locks out the smallest two cogs for small-small to guarantee compliance with their teeth drop spec which is a bit annoying.

Also a slight change regarding rotors as I've been focusing on braking a lot recently. I still think Galfer are the best blend of price, weight, and function. However, if you really push technical desents it just isn't as good as heavier rotors. Most road riders would be fine with 160f/140r galfer but think about the riding you do and if you do frequent technical 20%+ desents consider another heavier option for the front rotor for better performance. Shimano also claims that their Dura-Ace level black coating helps thermal performance over the uncoated Ultegra level rotors that weigh the same.

paint.PNG
Great additional info. Do you happen to know about any differences between BBs? Are Dura Ace BB-R9100 worth the upgrade over the SM-BBR60 that 105/Ultegra uses?

OtterSpace
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by OtterSpace

Jaisen wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:14 pm
Great additional info. Do you happen to know about any differences between BBs? Are Dura Ace BB-R9100 worth the upgrade over the SM-BBR60 that 105/Ultegra uses?
Sorry but I don't know anything meaningful about the Shimano BB.

I ran one ages ago on a commuter bike and everyone seems to love them for a just works kind of deployment. However, I've gotten to a place where all my builds in the last half decade have optimized past using 24mm crankarms so I've had no interest in the Shimano BB.

I would guess the dura-ace one save weight from the bearings. I dont think people complain about shimano bearing life so there likely is minimal impact from going with the lighter option.

Something else to share to combine info in one place is that the lightest Shimano road pedal with at least some degree of durability is a Ti spindle swapped Ultegra pedal. The Dura-Ace one is excellent but due to their design require a steel shaft to have a useful lifespan. It could be argued that the Ti spindle in Ultegra has long term durability issues as well but it is way more valid than using a Ti spindle in the Dura-Ace cup and cone bearing setup which is just a poor engineering choice. I have not tried this personally yet so I dont know the exact weight savings, and any long term issues, but its likely around 25g lower than Dura-Ace.

openwheelracing
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by openwheelracing

Between R9200 and R8100 there should be no difference except maybe the sound of titanium vs steel. Assuming the setup were properly dialed in.

There is a slight difference in upshift between HG+ and HG, the difference is subtle and I appreciate it.

Biggest difference is the slower R7100 front derailleur. No big deal really cause it is still very good.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I found a new Ultegra cage and today I swapped out the cage on my 9250 RD. I also got a 11-36 cassette and took the cluster on the 11-36 and merged it with my 11-34. Shifting is perfect on the bike stand. Tomorrow will be a real test on the road. The Ultegra cage added just 25g. The cassette mod. added 103g (252g to 355g). The stock 11-36 cassette is 377g. I like a wide-range cassette not just for climbing but because I could use the big ring for everything except a steep and long climb. It's like having two 1x drivetrains.

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