Warning to Campagnolo EPS riders: Power Unit failures

[glepore]

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... -d&q=60N06
Its a mosfet transistor readily available, but don't think its your problem. That white stuff everywhere looks like a failed capacitor or something.

[bikercr]

https://youtube.com/@kwakeham?si=36ahkqlJp024ZG7C

This YouTube link is to Keith Wakeman's channel. He helped develop EPS with Campy and has tinkered with the parts since leaving his work there. Bet he could give you some advice on the broken charger.

[barbaar]

I thought the white stuff was just glue or something. It's all over the place.

Thanks for Keith's YouTube. Will contact him.

Meanwhile I have also reached out to the local Campy distributor. You never know

[graeme_f_k]

I thought the white stuff was just glue or something. It's all over the place.

Thanks for Keith's YouTube. Will contact him.

Meanwhile I have also reached out to the local Campy distributor. You never know

Hi All

Where any of this stuff on this thread is concerned, I'd hope that all the regular guys on this forum would know by now, that I am as open as I can by be with the info I post here.

I will continue to produce a small digest of notes that appear to be relevant to topics raised in any given thread but please can I ask that people drop me a mail either through the Campagnolo website (just put your location at "UK" and the "reason" as either "Technical Information" or "Spare parts and Technical Documentation") or directly ay velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com" as well as posting here, so that I can keep on top of technical issues which are, ultimately, not my worldwise resposibility (thank goodness) but which do consume a fair part of my time ...

By all means, please look at Keith's channel but also be aware that he hasn't worked for Campag for some while and is either not aware of a lot of the decisions that have been taken since he left or indeed, of all of the elements of the EPS project as a whole - a lot of what Campagnolo do in their R and D process is developed is done in quite tight silos and often individuals working in one area won't know a lot about what is happening elsewhere ... hence his lack of appreciation of the mechanical aspects of EPS vs the electronic and the gaps which I've been able to point out in his knowledge of some parts of the customer care elements of EPS (see the comments appended to some of his videos) ...

All of which having been said ...

A quick digest of things I have seen in this string that I hope I can add something constructive to, since last I was here:

1. The white material inside the chargers is not from a damaged capacitor, it's simply a bonding material that is seemingly quite randomly applied inside the charger units to prevent the (very few) loose cables inside from moving about too much.
2. Failure on the AC side of the charger units is typically caused by transistor fails as a result of mains voltage fluctuations. More recent chargers are significantly less vulnerable than older ones were and we see many more of these failures in the UK market, for example, than we do in the some other markets due to the quite variable range of applied voltages typically experinced by UK cuctomers.
3. Please remember that chargers have a three year warranty so if you should be unfortunate enough to experience a failure, the charger may well still be covered by the factory warranty.
4. Where the comparison of EPS batteries to laptop batteries is made - there isn't one, really. Yes, the battery itself uses much the same tech but the battery protection circuitry is totally different - to incorporate the protections that are used on some batteries (laptops, cellphones) in EPS would be prohibitively expensive / bulky in EPS PUs. Basically, it comes down to this - EPS batteries that switch off due to discharge are at about 10% of their maximal charge state. They can remain in that state for some time, slowly degrading - but the chemical changes that are taking place will eventually render them not only poor to non-functional in terms of performance but may also cause them to be dangerous if they are "persuaded" back into action - we always discuss with customers the attendant risks, when we "rescue" undervolted EPS batteries (we have bits of kit here at Velotech Cycling Ltd that we have made, that can sometimes help us to rejuvenate undervolted batteries in EPS units).
5. Bikercr:
"The rapid flashing green is a v4 rear derailleur OR a PU fault. You shouldn't get that if the PU is only connected to the interface and vice versa. Is your interface also connected to the controls? If so, that may be why you're getting the warning signal (something wrong with rear D signal). If not, then this may indicate a PU issue. So, be sure there's just a single cable (grey) connected between the PU and interface and nothing else on either."
Not so. The PU sees the absence of a RD as an error - so if no RD is attached to the PU / IF system, the rapid flashing green LED will show. All the error LED indicators cancel after 55 sec (approx) until the next shift or other operation is cued ... so in a PU / IF isolated from the other parts of the EPS system, the LED will show initially (if the PU isn't switched off) and will cancel after the 55sec - it wouldn't show again in the case of an isolated PU / IF unless the charger were to be disconnected & then re-connected or unless otrher lement sof the EPS system were to be connected.
6. WRL battery boxes have a designed in "hatch" at the bottom rear of the box, designed to allow the two USB cables that come with every new pair of batteries, to be attached to a charger. Hence, for customers concerned to receive boxes that still have their Campagnolo seals unbroached / intact, it's still possible that the shop or wholesaler supplying the batteries has charged them, since the charge cables are in place on the battery charging terminals in the boxes.

[bikercr]

I stand corrected, Graeme. You are an incredible resource for Campy riders on this website!

[barbaar]

Thanks @graeme_f_k awesome post!

I got confirmation that my charger will be replaced under warranty as it's only 2 years old. I need to return the dead one, so unfortunately not possible to try and fix it..

Hopefully the next one will be a better one that lasts longer...

[graeme_f_k]

Just another quick note as I had a mail from a fellow user of the forum WRT battery charge states:

Charging with the switch-off band in place, you won't see any indicator LEDs on the IF.
If the band is removed, you will see the charge status change on the IF like this:

Red ~1 sec period flashing - 0-6%
N.B. It can be a problem if the PU has been left with (apparent) zero charge for several weeks but if you see this, you are probably fine if the two steady lights on the charger confirm that the battery is taking charge. I say "apparently" zero charge because it isn't actually at zero - it's at the point where the EPS shuts down to protect the battery, the real charge state is around 10% / 7.2v
Red solid 7 - 20%
Yellow solid - 21-40%
Green ~1 sec period flashing - 41-60%
Green solid 61% plus.

Faster red flash (around double this rate) is an IF fault indicator, faster green flash is a RD or RD control software fault.
Flashing orange or red light on the charger indicates a faulty battery or fault in the charger's ability to read the state of the battery (can be a charger fault).

Generally, from red slow flash, should take between 3 and 4 hours (at which point the red / orange light on the charger will go out, the green will stay on).

If the charge cycle is significantly faster than that and / or if the charger gets hot (as distinct from "warm"), the battery may have one or more cells compromised.

We have had some success in installed systems where the PU looked suspect, with depleting the battery in the PU to around 50% (by riding, lots of shifts) and then recharging repeatedly. Lithium Ion cells can recover some capacity, partly because how they behave is in part governed by the battery management software - we've seen the same thing with SRAM e-Tap batteries where we've managed to "fool" the charging software after it's initially given a dead-battery indication on the charger.

[graeme_f_k]

My original battery was replaced under warranty. That's the PU that failed abruptly after 3 months of use with no explanation. New PU fixed everything, my bike is back together and shifting perfectly!

The replacement PU that was almost certainly stored improperly and allowed to drain down completely before sold to me, in sealed new box: Campy is testing it now and will replace the unit to the company (Velomine, a great Campy supplier) and they are sending me a full refund. Velomine purchased the battery from a bulk supplier which is likely where the battery was stored for a long time without charging.

The big problem for the end user is that there's no obvious manufacture date printed on the box or PU. There's no way for us to know in advance, before breaking the seal, whether the battery is fresh or stale. For a $500+ battery, that's really unfair to the consumer. Even a $3 carton of milk has an expiration date printed on it.

This. The demand for these parts isn't great, but they're not cheap. I appreciate that Campy is supplying them, unlike Chorus/Athena stuff, but selling dead parts is bad, period. I hae some spares in house, and they get topped up every 3 months, regardless. And yes, I get that ultimately that also shortens useful life once installed.

TBH, the life-shortening effect is tiny.

The usual metric that is used, is that recharge life is 500 charge cycles.

Realistically, what that means is that after 500 charge cycles, the storage capacity of the battery will have fallen to approx 80% of what it was, new - it does *not* mean, it's scrap! I've got a Nokia 3310 phone I use as my drop-it-and-it-doesn't-matter phone and the battery in that is now in it's 11th year - no idea how many charge cycles but sure, it only lasts about 50% as long as it did when new ... but it's still fine.

Additionally, a "charge cycle" is from zero to 100% - so if the battery falls to say, an average of 50% charge before it's taken back up to "full" - you can do that 1000 times before you see that 80% capacity number come up.

These are both questions I have asked multiple vendors of Li-ion batteries, to get a definitive answer.