Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

Sanchpanza
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:34 am

by Sanchpanza

RTW wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:34 pm
Sanchpanza wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:02 pm
Some strong views either way on this, and everyone is entitled to their own view.

For what its worth, I like the fact Campagnolo have taken their time, and in many ways stolen the best bits from the competiton and then added their own touches.

The silly patents that SCAM have manged to get passed, limit in many ways the entire market, and I can see why some choices have been made by campag.

The brand is , was, and will forever remain the premium group set manufacturer, as much as any SCAM or shimano fan boys want to stamp their feet otherwise.

Not being able to afford it, or Campagnolo not having th marketing budget to continue to dominate the pro peleton doesnt change that.

Their is room for all.... SCAM is your citroen, Shimano is your ford, and Campagnolo is your VW......its just better. Hand made, lasts, looks great, light.

Innovation undoubtedly means this is the V1 , and is their a huge market ... maybe not yet, but if the tech trickles down to chorus etc.... I think maybe people are getting a bit giddy over a percieved demise....

Campag is a fabulous story in a business overtaken my mass produced nonsense.... people who like campag ( and for the record I have HAD shimano, campag, and SCAM ) seem to love campag... and whilst shimano and SCAM lose sales to the chinese rubbish, for exactly the same reasons...it doesn have that same appeal, its just the current fad..... I think Campag will only get stronger....

Time will tell.....either way, dont stress, ride your bike, enjoy your bike.... room for all..
I stopped reading at 'SCAM'. You may not care (I'm sure you don't) but calling names completely devalues your post. I am sure that there are patents which Campagnolo have defended too.
Apologies - Honestly that was a typo/autocorrect and I didnt re-read, I wasnt trying to call names at all....

RTW
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by RTW

wooger wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:06 am

Pretty sure no one ever wanted a heavier groupset.
Actually many many people said that. The first electronic groups were heavier than mechanical. Hydraulic brake groups are heavier than rim. Additional sprockets make cassettes heavier. Etc etc.

These are what the market has said they want, and unless you have been purchasing brand new, lightweight rim brake groupsets together with all your friends on a month to month, year to year basis, then you've told the manufacturers this is okay by you too.

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RTW
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by RTW

Sanchpanza wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:37 pm
Apologies - Honestly that was a typo/autocorrect and I didnt re-read, I wasnt trying to call names at all....
No harm, no foul. Amusing autocorrect! :lol:

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

RTW wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:09 pm
wooger wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:06 am

Pretty sure no one ever wanted a heavier groupset.
Actually many many people said that. The first electronic groups were heavier than mechanical. Hydraulic brake groups are heavier than rim. Additional sprockets make cassettes heavier. Etc etc.

These are what the market has said they want, and unless you have been purchasing brand new, lightweight rim brake groupsets together with all your friends on a month to month, year to year basis, then you've told the manufacturers this is okay by you too.
Actually nothing wrong with a 9s or 10s narrow range cassette paired with a triple chainset. Sure it takes more skill and effort to use, but the gear range is good.

I'm sure technology could have been applied to improve triples and reduce weight, but hey more cogs in the back is much sexier and an *upgrade*.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1925
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

One thing I have not heard anyone mention or praise is that they got rid of the tiny charge cable that is nearly impossible to screw in without damage. That alone is worth the price of admission.

No, I have not damaged one yet, but everytime I plug mine in, I get my readers, bright light, and carefully look at the aligning notch before I mate the two together.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

zappafile123 wrote: 1. Outrageously large derailleurs
The long-term feather in Campy's hat, which has been removed and put on the table is aesthetics. If you pull up a photo of 2nd gen Shimano Di2, the hideous Ultegra 6770, you'll see that the Campy derailleurs are LARGER. How!? Disgusting. Fat. Ugly. No. The derailleurs should be 40% smaller, look at Shimano, its 2023.
Comparing wireless mechs to Di2 is pointless. Di2 has no battery to accommodate, so it’s bound to be significantly smaller. Because EPS has no battery the change will be grating but as with Etap, the shock will subside.
1b. logo aesthetics - thumbs down
I dunno, bland, not exciting, doesn’t pop, too subdued. Where is the campy flair?
Each to their own.
2a. Stupid shifter button design
Vertical shift button layout? Did anyone think about how the physical structure of hands? Do you have two fingers that naturally extend down to hover unencumbered over vertically arranged each button? NO! Users will have to scrunch their hands, flex their wrists, to adjust the tip or tips of their fingers to hit each button. Dumb. Also two reviewers complained about a sharp edged of the shifter blade cutting into their hand. WTF.
Having come from EPS to Di2 I think you are over thinking this. I have had no issues at all using two adjacent switches, with or without winter gloves. I did have problems with EPS levers coming too close to the bar on occasion. But that was due to my preference for longer travel on rim brakes.
2b. No thumb shifter
Some people don’t like the thumb shifter, that’s cool, no worries, they don’t buy campy. The thumb shifter is great. Yes, it’s not the best for reaching from the drops, but Campy could have just made it easier. The thumb shifter is (by and large) uniquely campy and very ergonomic from the hoods where is where people ride 95% of the time.
Haven’t missed it one bit despite having been on Ergopower for over a decade.
3. 750-1000km range?
Right... so some people are going to make sure they charge their batteries once every week and a half? That sounds like a massive pain in the ass. Why go for a gimmick over practical everyday use. This is, in effect, a dig at going wireless. The FSA WE and 9200 approach seems like a practical compromise. Why not do that? Its not at all hard to thread cables through two tubes. The benefit of an internal battery seems to obviously outweigh the benefit of an easier install.
Fair comment. But in practice it’s not that big a deal.
4. SRAM gear ratios
One of the people reviewing the groupset did say that maintaining the perfect cadence was easier than old-school mid compact etc. Cool. Over the last few years, I feel as though I've seen by and large negative media on SRAMs ratios e.g., higher friction, pros demanding bigger rings, hubbards saying the small rings look dorky. Why did Campy go down a path where pretty much everyone said 'na, this is dumb'?
Riders are seeking out lower gears but still think they need a 53x11 equivalent.
5. No update to the brakes/crankset?
It’s more of a niggling point, but why doesn’t the crankset look new and exciting? Why hasn’t there been an update to the brakes? I get that they were already good, but they have had 5 years to work out how to do something new.
Brakes have been updated albeit only a little. But then again, they are recognised as the best in class.
As for the cranks, I suspect because Campag are still offering the mechanical version of SR12 and the current cranks are light & stiff they decided to not mess around with a good thing other than what was necessary to fit the smaller rings.
6. No rim brake option
This could be beating a dead horse, and I don’t know sales figures, but I would have thought there was a profitable market niche by remaining the last hold out for high end rim brake group sets.
Rim brake aficionados are less likely to want electronic, let alone wireless. If Campag were ditching mechanical you’d have a point. But they are not. Mechanical Chorus, Record and Super Record are still in the range in both rim & disc iterations. Developing a wireless rim brake lever would be a waste of resources as it probably wouldn’t give sufficient ROI.
7. Apparently, the shifting sucks?
A remarkably frank review from Sam Gupta seems to suggest that the apparent steaming pile of garbage outlined above is in fact a steaming pile of garbage. You'd think that with the price, the 5-year gap between group sets that Campy could have at least nailed the shifting?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/ ... s-groupset
Cycling Weekly’s “tester” is hardly the best judge of much from what I have seen.
9. Price
Pricing needs to be competitive. This whole thing 'we're a luxury brand, we need to be expensive for its own sake' is BS. Currently the pricing looks to be nearly double the cost of Dura Ace. Thats just getting ridiculous, especially when you consider your paying nearly double for an obviously inferior product. You'd have to be blind or dumb to buy this groupset over 9200.
Yet again comparing full retail of an aa yet unavailable groupset to heavily discounted prices on an established groupset. Hardly fair.
Conclusion
So... Campy went and copied SRAM? Why? SRAM suck. What were Campy thinking with this release? I don’t know. Someone is smoking too much weed in Italy. I cant think of any positives from this release. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I’d agree that Campag seem to have given in to pressure to ape Sram in Gung fully wireless. However I wonder if getting round Shimano’s patents so they could ditch the integrated wires of EPS was a factor. I’ll reserve judgement until I’ve actually laid hands on it.


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I would love to try it!
But yes, it seems like they have gone mostly same route as Sram.
But on the other hand, Sram push ideas and Shimano are quite late to the party.
What would you have asked from Campanolo, talking changes from previous EPS?

Wireless isn't that strange, that's what most people want.
Separate batteries is way better than one single battery.
Just wait until you have had issues with Di2 (5 batteries) and have to go through all connectors and components time and time again.
You can easily swap the batteries if you forgot to charge them. RD will get more use, so it's what will give up first.
You just swap them and ride big ring.
Although i have never had a problem with this since 2015 (Etap and now AXS).
If your mind has a problem remembering, just bring a spare battery (you can tape it to the saddle or seatpost).

Rim brake people don't want electronic, yes once you ride it, you will probably get hooked.
But for sure, mechanical is the tank since it can't shortcut or anything like that.

Only thing i don't get is the super compact gearing they went for.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

wheelsONfire wrote:Wireless isn't that strange, that's what most people want.
Separate batteries is way better than one single battery.
Just wait until you have had issues with Di2 (5 batteries) and have to go through all connectors and components time and time again.
With the new 9270 Di2 you’re talking about 2 wires, so 4 connections. 9250 requires a couple more. Having had 9050, 9150 and now 9250 & 9270 I have had zero issues.
You can easily swap the batteries if you forgot to charge them. RD will get more use, so it's what will give up first.
You just swap them and ride big ring.
Although i have never had a problem with this since 2015 (Etap and now AXS).
If your mind has a problem remembering, just bring a spare battery (you can tape it to the saddle or seatpost).
But Campag have elected to use different batteries that aren’t interchangeable.


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usr
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:36 am
You can easily swap the batteries if you forgot to charge them. RD will get more use, so it's what will give up first.
You just swap them and ride big ring.
Not on campag SRW, the option to swap FD and RD batteries is only for lowlifes who can't afford to carry 400+€ spare batteries, apparently.

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

usr wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:27 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:36 am
You can easily swap the batteries if you forgot to charge them. RD will get more use, so it's what will give up first.
You just swap them and ride big ring.
Not on campag SRW, the option to swap FD and RD batteries is only for lowlifes who can't afford to carry 400+€ spare batteries, apparently.
Look, it's not just about the poor people who can't afford a spare set of batteries in case they forget to charge. Battery issues happen, especially in cold and wet conditions, if either of your batteries is faulty you will not be able to ride your bike properly.

With SRAM eTap I keep one spare battery at home in case I lose a battery, or it suddenly stops working, I can also take it on long rides/trips. This isn't really an economical option with the Campy setup and that's a real concern. I guess it's similar to Di2, but at least that battery is a lot cheaper.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

EdWiser
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Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:50 pm

by EdWiser

SRAM patent prevents anyone from using the same battery in RD and FD.

LuigiG
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Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:11 pm

by LuigiG

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Last edited by LuigiG on Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

EdWiser wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:41 pm
SRAM patent prevents anyone from using the same battery in RD and FD.
That is well known. Yes, the cycle industry is full of patents to stifle competition and companies often need to jump through hoops to get around patents, which means consumers get inferior products.

In Campy's case I wonder if licensing the SRAM patent would have been viable. If not providing 2 sets of batteries with each groupset would also help. On the other hand charging an exorbitant sum of money for batteries really does not help with this issue one bit.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

rudye9mr
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 12:01 pm

by rudye9mr

Entering WRL space is good. Just to iterate design and tech going forward.

Butcher
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Posts: 1925
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

I think wireless is just a stupid idea but if I charge my Garmin after every ride, why would I have a problem charging my bike at a certain interval? Every week? Gives you a chance to look at your equipment to make certain things are top notch before you head out.

Again, I would pay extra to have a hidden battery inside a frame. The one I have has been inside the frame for 10+ years and it's just fine.

We push manufacturers to give us what we think we want. Patents can prevent the best ideas to improve. What would you expect if you want a battery attached to a derailleur? Slimmer? Consumers are weird sometimes.

by Weenie


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