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Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster
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B0tt0mline wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pmNo buttons for garmin control.Dov wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 amThis is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?
For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
No powermeter option (as far as I know currently).
Moreover people did never ask for that short battery life.
No innovation at all.
I think Campa will either die (the generation willing to buy their products is getting old) or get bought (maybe by the same company as Colnago)...
How do you know? It's programmable in v3 & v4, no reason for you to suspect any rollback on that.No buttons for garmin control.
Due later this year - Campagnolo have pre-production protypes out on test at the momentNo powermeter option (as far as I know currently).
It's intrinsic in wirelessMoreover people did never ask for that short battery life.
Is innovation always required - where does improvement on an existing concept stop and innovatioon start - point to practically any "innovation" in cycle tech from the last 40 years, and I can point you at an example where the same thing has been tried before. Even wireless electronic that we all get so hot under the collar about is close on 30 years old ...No innovation at all.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
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Where's that little "Love" button again?RTW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:58 amPeople never seem to understand this. If you are in charge of warranties, you see some warranties - and lots and lots and lots of non-warranties being passed off as warranties. As Graeme says, if you work with the product day in day out, you know just by looking if a product has been misused. When I was at Assos, we would get things sent to us all the time which we could tell have been washed in a hot wash (30 degrees is the max you should use) or tumble dried, and thus had been damaged by the owner. Of course, the owner claimed they hadn't been. Like Graeme says upthread with the scratching, we could tell by the stitching. It would annoy us - being lied to does that to people.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:01 amIn practice, SCs use their discretion - but that does not extend to blatant abuses of the material.
My advice to anyone is to be reasonable. Put in a warranty claim if it is a warranty, but be honest. If you used something with other components, say so. If you were a fool, write and say "I messed up, but can you help me please?".... you're more likely to get help than if you claim you were JRA, because, you know... that is REALLY rare.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
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Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
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graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 amWhere's that little "Love" button again?RTW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:58 amPeople never seem to understand this. If you are in charge of warranties, you see some warranties - and lots and lots and lots of non-warranties being passed off as warranties. As Graeme says, if you work with the product day in day out, you know just by looking if a product has been misused. When I was at Assos, we would get things sent to us all the time which we could tell have been washed in a hot wash (30 degrees is the max you should use) or tumble dried, and thus had been damaged by the owner. Of course, the owner claimed they hadn't been. Like Graeme says upthread with the scratching, we could tell by the stitching. It would annoy us - being lied to does that to people.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:01 amIn practice, SCs use their discretion - but that does not extend to blatant abuses of the material.
My advice to anyone is to be reasonable. Put in a warranty claim if it is a warranty, but be honest. If you used something with other components, say so. If you were a fool, write and say "I messed up, but can you help me please?".... you're more likely to get help than if you claim you were JRA, because, you know... that is REALLY rare.
<edit> Hang on, just re-read that - sounds wrong!
You all KWIM though, right?
</edit>
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
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graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:06 amgraeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 amWhere's that little "Love" button again?RTW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:58 amPeople never seem to understand this. If you are in charge of warranties, you see some warranties - and lots and lots and lots of non-warranties being passed off as warranties. As Graeme says, if you work with the product day in day out, you know just by looking if a product has been misused. When I was at Assos, we would get things sent to us all the time which we could tell have been washed in a hot wash (30 degrees is the max you should use) or tumble dried, and thus had been damaged by the owner. Of course, the owner claimed they hadn't been. Like Graeme says upthread with the scratching, we could tell by the stitching. It would annoy us - being lied to does that to people.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:01 amIn practice, SCs use their discretion - but that does not extend to blatant abuses of the material.
My advice to anyone is to be reasonable. Put in a warranty claim if it is a warranty, but be honest. If you used something with other components, say so. If you were a fool, write and say "I messed up, but can you help me please?".... you're more likely to get help than if you claim you were JRA, because, you know... that is REALLY rare.
<edit> Hang on, just re-read that - sounds wrong!
You all KWIM though, right?
</edit>
<edit> Hang on, just re-read that, too - sounds even more wrong!
Maybe I'll stop digging ...
</edit>
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
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graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:08 amgraeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:06 amgraeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:05 amWhere's that "Like" button again?RTW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:58 am
People never seem to understand this. If you are in charge of warranties, you see some warranties - and lots and lots and lots of non-warranties being passed off as warranties. As Graeme says, if you work with the product day in day out, you know just by looking if a product has been misused. When I was at Assos, we would get things sent to us all the time which we could tell have been washed in a hot wash (30 degrees is the max you should use) or tumble dried, and thus had been damaged by the owner. Of course, the owner claimed they hadn't been. Like Graeme says upthread with the scratching, we could tell by the stitching. It would annoy us - being lied to does that to people.
My advice to anyone is to be reasonable. Put in a warranty claim if it is a warranty, but be honest. If you used something with other components, say so. If you were a fool, write and say "I messed up, but can you help me please?".... you're more likely to get help than if you claim you were JRA, because, you know... that is REALLY rare.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
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You are right with the first two points.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:58 amB0tt0mline wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pmNo buttons for garmin control.Dov wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 amThis is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?
For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
No powermeter option (as far as I know currently).
Moreover people did never ask for that short battery life.
No innovation at all.
I think Campa will either die (the generation willing to buy their products is getting old) or get bought (maybe by the same company as Colnago)...How do you know? It's programmable in v3 & v4, no reason for you to suspect any rollback on that.No buttons for garmin control.Due later this year - Campagnolo have pre-production protypes out on test at the momentNo powermeter option (as far as I know currently).It's intrinsic in wirelessMoreover people did never ask for that short battery life.Is innovation always required - where does improvement on an existing concept stop and innovatioon start - point to practically any "innovation" in cycle tech from the last 40 years, and I can point you at an example where the same thing has been tried before. Even wireless electronic that we all get so hot under the collar about is close on 30 years old ...No innovation at all.
Sram battery life is much better than this.
Innovation is required when you charge so much more than Shimano and Sram from my point of view. Don't get me wrong, I like Campa and also thought of getting it, but there is just no reason to buy it instead of Shimano or Sram
Colnago C68- Enve SES 4.5
S-Works Aethos - Enve SES 2.3
Open MIN.D - Enve SES AR 4.5
Mosaic GT2-45 - Enve SES AR 3.4
Open WI.DE - no money for Enve
S-Works Aethos - Enve SES 2.3
Open MIN.D - Enve SES AR 4.5
Mosaic GT2-45 - Enve SES AR 3.4
Open WI.DE - no money for Enve
Pretty sure no one ever wanted a heavier groupset.Dov wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 amThis is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?
For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
Max cassette of 10-29 is a smaller gear range than any other manufacturer offers.
Not offering any rim brake option seems beside the point as far as their disc offering is concerned, but given the price makes this groupset aimed solely at independently rich boutique market, you'd have thought the market for a nice silver rim brake electronic groupset compatible with classic Italian frames would be worthwhile.
I don‘t have a favourite box-mover. But there is no campagnolo dealership within 200k driving distance where i live.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:04 amWe have had stock, still have stock and have more stock on our back-order.Bobbyc123 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:19 amUk has stock for both of these now. DM me if you're desperate.tallboyeu wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pmActually i tried to find EPS V3 Power Unit and Interface at (EU)european distributors. No luck…Nickldn wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:39 pm
What makes you think you'll be able to find spares, such as batteries, a few years later for your planned purchase? Not try to troll, genuinely interested how people perceive legacy EPS support will pan out. It is a very low volume product after all compared to Di2 and AXS.
Just because your favourite box-mover isn't listing it, doesnt mean it's not available.
Therefor i have to rely on information provided by the official campagnolo website. Or transparent Web-offerings. I don‘t have access to these kind of insider information
Maybe i have to apologize Now. Sorry for being a campagnolo customer for 15 years…
But thanks graeme_f_k for sharing the information on the availability of 12sp wired EPS. I reales appreciate it.
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Just drop the SC an email, usually, we are quite responsive!tallboyeu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:39 amI don‘t have a favourite box-mover. But there is no campagnolo dealership within 200k driving distance where i live.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:04 amWe have had stock, still have stock and have more stock on our back-order.
Just because your favourite box-mover isn't listing it, doesnt mean it's not available.
Therefor i have to rely on information provided by the official campagnolo website. Or transparent Web-offerings. I don‘t have access to these kind of insider information
Maybe i have to apologize Now. Sorry for being a campagnolo customer for 15 years…
But thanks graeme_f_k for sharing the information on the availability of 12sp wired EPS. I reales appreciate it.
The consumer website has just had a complete revamp and I suspect not everything is up there yet.
I've already mailed to the marketing team to explain that there is some confusion apropos current availability in the market.
One of the problems with pretty much all the box-movers is that they draw their data from wholesaler websites - they seldom populate their own database, it's automated - but since Campagnolo don't supply that direct linkage (as they supply very few retailers directly), what a retailer displays will be a reflection of what their primary wholesale supplier stocks and what they, themselves database.
Campagnolo can't control that, especially on items like v3 which are legacy items, now.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Same way of thinking.zappafile123 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:18 am1. Outrageously large derailleurs
1b. logo aesthetics - thumbs down
2a. Stupid shifter button design
2b. No thumb shifter
3. 750-1000km range?
4. SRAM gear ratios
5. No update to the brakes/crankset?
etc
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wooger wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:06 amDov wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 amThis is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?
For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
Understood re range (do we really *need* that range?) but with 45-29 chainrings, still gives 1:1 and is 140g lighter than the corresponding 50-34 / 11-34 wired offering.Pretty sure no one ever wanted a heavier groupset.
Max cassette of 10-29 is a smaller gear range than any other manufacturer offers.
The market just doesn't appear to be big enough.Not offering any rim brake option seems beside the point as far as their disc offering is concerned, but given the price makes this groupset aimed solely at independently rich boutique market, you'd have thought the market for a nice silver rim brake electronic groupset compatible with classic Italian frames would be worthwhile.
When we ask the wholesale markets around the world, "if we offered this, how many would you buy" - basically the only way and manufacturer can get any realsitic handle on the market - the numbers are non-viable.
I've got to say that I sympathise, to an extent with the view that a silver alloy group would be a nice add-on ... but when you have a certain manufacturing capacity & are selling everything that you make, is it worth the investment for something that will be a short-term (in manufacturing terms) venture to satify a shrinking market, that also makes the brand seem backward looking - I can just see the headlines now ... "Campagnolo Harks Back to Days of Former Glory" and all the rest - which eclipses 2 TdFs straight won by Podgacar on current tech.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
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Battery life is pretty subjective, BTW. It really does depend on how much you shift and what shifts you make.B0tt0mline wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:43 amYou are right with the first two points.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:58 amB0tt0mline wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pmNo buttons for garmin control.Dov wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 amThis is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?
For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
No powermeter option (as far as I know currently).
Moreover people did never ask for that short battery life.
No innovation at all.
I think Campa will either die (the generation willing to buy their products is getting old) or get bought (maybe by the same company as Colnago)...How do you know? It's programmable in v3 & v4, no reason for you to suspect any rollback on that.No buttons for garmin control.Due later this year - Campagnolo have pre-production protypes out on test at the momentNo powermeter option (as far as I know currently).It's intrinsic in wirelessMoreover people did never ask for that short battery life.Is innovation always required - where does improvement on an existing concept stop and innovatioon start - point to practically any "innovation" in cycle tech from the last 40 years, and I can point you at an example where the same thing has been tried before. Even wireless electronic that we all get so hot under the collar about is close on 30 years old ...No innovation at all.
Sram battery life is much better than this.
Innovation is required when you charge so much more than Shimano and Sram from my point of view. Don't get me wrong, I like Campa and also thought of getting it, but there is just no reason to buy it instead of Shimano or Sram
I'd be cautious of taking anyones (including Campag's) numbers, as gospel.
In my area, training, I'll get much, much better battery life that someone who lives & races in the mountains.
If I shift 20 times in 100km, I'd be surprised, if I am local. No front shifts needed at all. It would be different if I was racing, different again if I rode less locally and there was something around that looked like a hill ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!
Actually I am going to add to this....
The other thing about warranties is this. Often (not always) when you work for a brand you beleive in their product and use it yourself. You have pride in it. Therefore you want others to enjoy the product and get the best out of it. If you work in the warranty department you hope two things. 1. You have few warranties. 2. The warranties that are sent it are actual real warranties. It is a lot easier to replace the product, log the warranty issue, send it to HQ to see if there is a pattern and if a running change is needed, than it is to go back to the customer and explain why, no, in this instance we don't agree.
When they aren't genuine, and you know they aren't, you have to let the customer know. Sometimes they argue, threaten legal action, etc etc. Laws will be (mis)quoted. Bad mouthing will go onto forums etc. Sometimes they say 'okay' that's fair.
Now you might think - well why not just warranty every claim, if it is easier? Because if it is an unknown issue we would collect the product and return it for analysis. Sometimes you need to return it to the vendor for their assessment and reimbursement of costs of manufacture. With non genuine claims, the company foots the bill. Across different countries we would work out the warranty rate. If you're above that warranty rate, then the brand will look into that. So giving a blanket 'yes' isn't an option.
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