Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

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zappafile123
Posts: 655
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by zappafile123

graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 am
apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:56 pm
With a bit of time to reflect I think the majority of my dissapointment is a reflection of expecting something different from Campagnolo and not getting it. I wanted to have a reason be excited about buying Campagnolo and this isnt it.
I've hestitated a while before coming to this party.

As most regulars here know, I'm the longest standing SC Principal within Campagnolo and have worked with Campagnolo product, on and off, for over 40 years - so, with that declaration of interest (for those that didn't know) up front, here's my take on what I have read so far:

General disappointment
Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.

Pricing
Price point is mostly a marketing decision. Using that experience as an indicator (there are lots of other things we can cite as examples), that, for me, means that premium is the way to go on the Campagnolo label.

General speculative commentary
I suppose what I find really amazing, is that there are fewer than 500 groupsets out in the wild at the moment and yet there are so many instant experts in how it feels and performs. [...] In fact, almost no-one in the real world has ridden WL yet, outside of Campagnolo. [...]

When a product is as trailered as long as WL was and is beset with as much speculation about it's likely features (113 pages and counting on this forum alone, before launch ...), whatever Campagnolo did, was going to attract criticism. You really can't please all of the people all of the time. [...]

But, if the market is making noisy demands for a wireless system, IMO, for it to be worthwhile, it has to be full wireless and that carries some penalties. One is derailleur size.[...]

Shift quality - this is the one I really find perplexing. [...]

Rim brake
I rue the absence of a rim brake option but we have to bend to the realities of the frame and wheel market as it is today. [...]

Shifting design
It was always going to be a gamble changing to a two lever shift, both behind the brake lever. As a long-time Campagnolo user (since the 1980s), and having raced on every iteration of Campagnolo index shift lever, it has been a bit of a jorney [...]

Batteries
Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? [...]

SRAM gears
The gear ratio issue is just about what people are used to. The various commentary about smaller sprockets introducing more friction is actually a distraction [...]
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response Graeme - I was hoping you might throw you hat into the ring. I'd like to comment just a few points you made.

1. Pricing
I 100% agree that Campagnolo Super Record is a luxury cycling brand and needs to be expensive accordingly. I appreciate that savvy buyers are not going to pay RRP. But a crazy high price is still an anchor and people are still going to pay more for what I consider to be a compromise. Anyway, the key message is, there is expensive, and there is taking the piss. The price is taking the piss.

2. Defence of 'warranted criticism'
You do raise a good point - few peopl have seen it, yet there are so many armchair critics. I have to point out that pretty much all my points of criticism related to what I consider to be poor design choices rather than performance. I dont need to ride SRW to know the derailleurs are unsightly, the graphics are uninspiring, or that the shift layout is a compromised design thats only come about to avoid patent infringements, and would never have been implemented if those patents werent there.

The point is, the ideas supporting the essence of SRW are bad rather than it performing badly out on the road. Yes, I did raise the points of the sharp levers and that negative reivew. I'm pretty confident that out on the road the shifting would be fine. Campy wouldnt release something that doesnt work.

3. The role of market sentiment and suggestions for the future
There seem to be two problems here:
  • 1. Campagnolo have paid too much attention to what they think the market wants
    2. Campagnolo have not prioritised function over market sentiment
Re the first point, the lukewarm to negative response seems to suggest that Campy formed beleifs about what the market wanted, but got it wrong. As I suggested, SRW is basically a SRAM copy. I guess Campy users dont want Campy branded SRAM. Seems like Campagnolo need to invest in targeted market research and consultation with experts to assist guide broad design choices. This could include doing surveys to find out what people want, showcasing designs, guaging responses, and acting accordingly etc. Campagnolo need evidence to demonstrate what people want, not guess. Speaking of guessing, Im guessing that campy didnt do this. Maybe they did. If they did, they should probably fire the consultancy they used cause their advice stank.

Re the second point, what people think they want (i.e. market sentiment) should not trump function and practical everyday use. Just becuase people want wireless, doenst mean they should get it. I guess its not black and white, but the wireless thing its a good example of where 'what the market' wants should be cast aside. Without taking the time to justify why, semi-wired is hands down a better solution at this point in time. Better looking, probably lighter, longer lasting. Campagnolo need to implement some internal checks and balances to ensure that the essence of its brand identity and the overarching goal 'to make the best groupset on the market' are never compromised by ostensible market senitment.

The key points are that Campy need good evidence to prop up a strong understanding of a) what the *target* market wants, and b) whether protoypes garner positive responses and to then take that evidence as inputs to the development of a final product thats guided by the balance of non-negotional principles of 'pinnacle of function' and 'Campagnolo heritage'.

SRW's development was clearly guided by a misunderstanding of what the target marked wanted which lead to an effective abandonment of the principles of 'pinnacle of function' balanced against 'Campy heritage'.

4. Other titbits
  • - The charger for EPS was the worst design ever. How that abomination happened I dont know.
    - I hold out hope that rim brake is going to remain a thing becuase a lot people still want it. I know its a rotting horse, but I remain hopeful campy will continue to offer mechanical rim brake SR groupsets.
Last edited by zappafile123 on Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Surveying consumers/end-users is a mixed bag and many brands get it so wrong. For example, survey answers should never be on a sliding scale. On a scale of 0-10, one person's 5 might be weighted differently than another person's 5. One person's scale might be linear while another might be curved. Listening to all of your customers would result in a hilariously bad product. Users shouldn't even be given the option of answering a question with indifference. They can choose to skip a question, but an official answer of "I don't care" only encourages a center-weighted aggregate.

"The customer is always right" does not apply to the R&D phase.

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usr
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by usr

Heh, some juicy replies recently, and while I really appreciate graeme's contribution (really!) I'm with those who counter "you haven't ridden! it works fine!" with nobody doubted that it works. "It works" is a minimum expectation for a 400 group, a given assumed to the point of total irrelevancyfor a 4000 group. On that level, other things are in focus. Things like "all those decades we claimed thumb levers are the bee's knees? Yeah, we fooled you, please give us more of your money". That's just not very clever communication if you want to sell groupsets. At least do some plausible deniability, but they failed even that.
Last edited by usr on Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

mriddle
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:18 am

by mriddle

patchandscruff wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:21 pm
Graeme delivers the mic drop.
Boom.
The most relevant poster of all things C.
Learn up people.

warthog101
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by warthog101

Never owned or even ridden it.
Less likely I will do so anytime soon given the price of this.
Meh, an interesting read though.

usr
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by usr

raggedtrousers wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:37 pm
First, the only people actually making that comparison are within Campagnolo or really, really dedicated enthusiasts - and they are missing the point. The danger to Campagnolo is not that SR WL doesn't work as well as DADi2 (it may or may not do, I haven't ridden it) it is that the brand is not aspirational, especially to those under 40, in the way that a Rolex is. A Rolex, outside the watchweenie world, is a status symbol; to buy a Rolex is to show you have made it. People who know nothing about watches know what a Rolex means.
Full agreement. With the <40 (and many > 40) I ride with, my campag stuff doesn't mean the slightest trace of envy, it means "why do you put up with that stuff, well, maybe you really like it for some weird reason". It's perceived more like a weird fetish than like an expression of taste.

The Rolex comparison might work well for mechanical (a Casio can do so much more), but the WRL is a group designed to win races. Unfortunately, chances are it won't.

And what's a huge difference to Rolex is that people approach roadbike groupsets with more brand loyalty than brand dreaming. If there's a 20 years old kids so talented that he will likely win a decade worth of grand tours, chances are that all teams who want to sign him will switch to the brand he had his 105/Rival/Veloce from. Or whatever 105/Rival if Veloce does not exist. Rolex does not have this problem. I think a comparison to car brands is more helpful: a Skoda Fabia driver may very well dream of driving a Ferrari instead of dreaming of driving a Superb, an RS8 or a Lamborghini. But a 105 rider dreams of riding Dura Ace, no matter how much more expensive a Super Record may be.

Campagnolo is in a difficult situation, torn between appeasing those who they'd like to sponsor (but who might very well turn down the money if riders prefer other brands, I believe that this is at the core of offering motor shifting and Shimano-like button arrangement) and those who happen to like whatever they sold the last decades. Unfortunately they failed to find a good compromise.

gwerziou
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by gwerziou

The group looks great to me, criticisms are hilariously ridiculous/pompous/overblown - but I still don't have that kind of money. I got an old house that needs endless fixing and sucks away all the cash. Talk about expensive.
• A hi-zoot bike, pretty sweet
• An old bike, more fun than the new one actually
• Unicycle, no brand name visible

ome rodriguez
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by ome rodriguez

Same when Super Record Carbon (mechanical) with raised hoods came out a lot of criticisms.

claus
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by claus

sevencyclist wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:05 pm
I am waiting to see if the new white logoed Super Record crankset in 45/29 would work with the existing mechanical SR12 shifting system.
It seems the Q-factor increased by 2mm: is that true?
It's listed as 147.5mm now on various websites and the Campagnolo Tech manual even shows 148mm?

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

claus wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:33 am
sevencyclist wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:05 pm
I am waiting to see if the new white logoed Super Record crankset in 45/29 would work with the existing mechanical SR12 shifting system.
It seems the Q-factor increased by 2mm: is that true?
It's listed as 147.5mm now on various websites and the Campagnolo Tech manual even shows 148mm?

Yes. Why? Not sure, guessing they couldn’t figure out how to reduce the bulk of the FD, which already has a fairly limited 34mm max tire clearance.

rajMAN
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by rajMAN

Thank you greame _f_k can't wait to see it in the flesh.

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

Many interesting comments here.

Here's my n = 1 market datapoint.
I'm a Shimano guy with occasional ventures into SRAM territory (still got an Etap rim brake groupset).
Albeit I have enough bikes already for whichever type of riding I choose to do, I have always dreamed about having a "Sunday" special (but still modern) bike, something not really mass produced, something which turns the heads of people who know.
I have always thought that bike would have Campagnolo Super Record on it (rim, disc, I don't know, but most likely electronic). And I sort of waited for this Campagnolo release to see if this really makes it, to start that project. And to me, it does not, neither rationally nor irrationally. And for Campagnolo, as many have pointed out, the latter should have been the most important.

As I said in the beginning, n = 1.
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robeambro
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by robeambro

Honest question. With previous iterations, my feel was like with Campagnolo you were paying a premium, and whilst you may not get any functional plus, you were getting premium materials (or at least, higher quality). Is this still the case with the new groupset?

Like, I love fancy stuff. Heck, I am into coffee and I used to own a Strietman CT2 (those who know, know)
so I have a soft spot for stuff like this, and when I started cycling a few years back I had always lusted over the perceived quality and craftsmanship of Campagnolo - and still kind of do, but I'm genuinely just trying to wrap my head around why on Earth would people buy this new SR WL. I'm sure some will.

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
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by Nickldn

robeambro wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:48 am
Honest question. With previous iterations, my feel was like with Campagnolo you were paying a premium, and whilst you may not get any functional plus, you were getting premium materials (or at least, higher quality). Is this still the case with the new groupset?

Like, I love fancy stuff. Heck, I am into coffee and I used to own a Strietman CT2 (those who know, know)
so I have a soft spot for stuff like this, and when I started cycling a few years back I had always lusted over the perceived quality and craftsmanship of Campagnolo - and still kind of do, but I'm genuinely just trying to wrap my head around why on Earth would people buy this new SR WL. I'm sure some will.
Talking more generally Campagnolo does produce some nice stuff. SR cassettes have beautiful machining (as do Chorus cassettes), which makes a Shimano Ultegra 12s cassette look like it's been cast and crudely polished up.

I like their RDs and chainsets, even the Chorus looks good.

Brakes are well thought out and compared to Shimano 12s there's a much bigger gap to the disk reducing rub.

To sum up Campagnolo does feel more special than Shimano and I really enjoy my Chorus 12s.

I would expect some of that feeling will carry over to SRW. It is different and it will still feel great. BUT the wireless implementation is a compromise due to patents and so are the shifter paddles. You have to get over those two things to really keep feeling the 'speciallness'.

The thing I can't get over is the price of the batteries, I hope they come with security bolts.
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

r_mutt wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:36 pm
Bondurant wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:30 pm
I would also like to chip in and thank Graeme for his always-thoughtful posts.

It's petty but I do find it risible that Rolex watches are the 'luxury' comparison on this thread. They are a mass-produced watch with great marketing. If anyone wants to draw a luxury, hand-built comparison when pigeonholing Campag, Rolex are probably not the best choice. If Campag sold the volumes Rolex does they would be doing rather well.
I'm not a watch person, but what watch brand(s) would be a better comparison for this, in your opinion?
I'll take the criticism.

I wouldn't say, as someone comments in the thread that it's a "risible" comparison but for sure, it's not the best one. Rolex is, though, an obvious go-to because it has brand recognition so people have in their mind what a Rolex looks like.

Actually, in some ways a better comparison would be a company like Richard Mille - radical-looking designs which some will love, others will hate, with a high price point and a high degree of mechanical and artisinal integrity.
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Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

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