Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

scb
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 4:16 pm

by scb

Yes, thank you Graeme for your thoughtful and knowledgeable comments. Nothing I have seen or read will prevent me from buying SR Wireless.

rollinslow
Posts: 864
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Location: New York

by rollinslow

Yes, excellent informative post by Graeme.

Groupset is still ugly though unfortunately. The starting point for a top-tier product that is barely used for professional racing anyway is an appearance and finish consistent with luxury. Put that Rolex next to the Seiko. They both tell time but the Rolex fit and finish is incredible. I expect that of Campagnolo and it to be carbon, titanium, CULT ceramic bearings and beautiful. No amount of function will fix that #1 necessity for me at this price point and what Campagnolo has established itself as.

Without being a luxury item as outlined above, it is no longer a luxury.
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Llanberis
Posts: 297
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by Llanberis

rollinslow wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:09 pm
Yes, excellent informative post by Graeme.

Groupset is still ugly though unfortunately. The starting point for a top-tier product that is barely used for professional racing anyway is an appearance and finish consistent with luxury. Put that Rolex next to the Seiko. They both tell time but the Rolex fit and finish is incredible. I expect that of Campagnolo and it to be carbon, titanium, CULT ceramic bearings and beautiful. No amount of function will fix that #1 necessity for me at this price point and what Campagnolo has established itself as.

Without being a luxury item as outlined above, it is no longer a luxury.
This. Considering SR's goal is going for the absolute best of the best, why on Earth would they downgrade the bearings on the crankset? They are so proud of CULT, which has its real benefits. Is it because they think Pro-Tech BB offers improved weather protection and therefore CULT becomes an overkill? (Which still doesn't make sense to me whne thinking about the reason of why SR exists.)

Xabi
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:55 pm

by Xabi

Personally I see more negatives than positives on a wireless groupset. I personally don't see the point if it's not on a full suspension MTB frame... For road frames it would be a plus if hydraulic hoses were wireless too.

10 minutes charge with a cheapo Chinese external battery that you can use any to charge any usb gadget gives you longer ride time than any removable battery on wireless groupsets.

New campagnolo derraileurs look bulky and ugly, definitely don't look like the money they cost. On the other hand I like the looks of the levers and brake calipers, ergonomically I can't say anything because I haven't touched them, yet.

morrisond
Posts: 1325
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

Ritxis wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:41 am
robeambro wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:03 am
Anybody commented yet on the great value batteries? Imagine needing a spare for whatever reason (or wanting a spare for ease of use)

https://www.bike-discount.de/it/campagn ... 2-velocita
440 € really Geroge? :oops: :oops: :oops:

is it justifiable? someone sure does........ :roll: :roll: :roll:
made with some material from Mars or Saturn's rings? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Seeing the size of the batteries (different) I launch this personal reflection....... and if there is "no" patent problem? and Campagnolo's "problem" has been the load capacity and that is why the rear is bigger???
Imagine the small one at the back (what autonomy would it give? then imagine the big one in front..... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Batteria-tre4-SUPER-RECORD-WRL-2024_800x800.jpg
It bugs me that the charging port on the FD battery is pointing forward = meaning dirt can get into it. I know it doesn't matter as its a magnetic connection but a PITA to clean out before charging.

morrisond
Posts: 1325
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 am
apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:56 pm
With a bit of time to reflect I think the majority of my dissapointment is a reflection of expecting something different from Campagnolo and not getting it. I wanted to have a reason be excited about buying Campagnolo and this isnt it.

Over time, I have migrated to Sram and then downmarket because there wasnt much to gain by spending more. As the peformance gap closed, the big difference was having one battery system / one electronics ecosystem across my bikes.

One thing I am happy for is that the 48/32 chainrings being the main combination will mean more power meter options for that specific size of chainring on the market and its a combo i really love with my AXS setups--and its one thing I really think Campagnolo got right vs. sram and shimano. Ive been running it primarily with a 10-30 on the road and a 10-33 or 10-36 on gravel and its awesome even though I think the 10-30 is actually a bit of a miss and I should either use the 10-28 or the 10-33 instead.
I've hestitated a while before coming to this party.

As most regulars here know, I'm the longest standing SC Principal within Campagnolo and have worked with Campagnolo product, on and off, for over 40 years - so, with that declaration of interest (for those that didn't know) up front, here's my take on what I have read so far:

Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.

I get that some people needed a reason to opt for WL. It's hard to know, though, unless what they were looking for was technically / commercially unattainable at this time, what that was / is. So, as with any new product, Campagnolo looked at the design trends, looked at what the frame merket, in particular was doing and made their choices. Remember, theyre doing this 5 to 6 years ahead - as are SH and SRAM.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's always 20/20.

A big complaint apperas to be price and especially in current circumstances, that is a valid concern. However, as others have said, a Seiko Kinetic and a Rolex Oyster Perpetual tell you the time just the same ... and I don't see Rolex rushing to offer a low cost version of the Oyster. No one "needs" a Rolex. No-one "needs" WL.

Price point is mostly a marketing decision, aside from some basic considerations around production cost. When EPS was launched in Athena, at factory gate it was a smidge (<5%) more expensive than Ultegra. Sales were still comfortably outsripped by RE/SR not in turnover but in units. A lower cost EPS12 might have done something in the market but I think that the product manager's love affair with Shimano makes that unlikely.

Using that experience as an indicator (there are lots of other things we can cite as examples), that, for me, means that premium is the way to go on the Campagnolo label.

The OE nut is going to take longer to crack and will require (IMO) a whole different manufacturing philosophy that will move production out of Europe and may even need a new brand. But I'm just a spanner-monkey, I'll leave that to the guys with brains the size of planets.

I suppose what I find really amazing, is that there are fewer than 500 groupsets out in the wild at the moment and yet there are so many instant experts in how it feels and performs. I've even seen supposedly "authoratative" comment on inter-compatibility with not just Campagnolo but other, third party product. Even real-world tested compatibility with other Campagnolo product is not yet completed at the factory - so the fact is - no-one *knows*. They are guessing.

In fact, almost no-one in the real world has ridden WL yet, outside of Campagnolo. Journos, on whose opinion, so much on forums is based, as we all know, have their own agendas and very few are actually very technically competent, either, so a percentage of them say things and make claims on both a commercial (as in "do they advertise with us?") and a flimsy, in most cases, technical, foundation.

When a product is as trailered as long as WL was and is beset with as much speculation about it's likely features (113 pages and counting on this forum alone, before launch ...), whatever Campagnolo did, was going to attract criticism. You really can't please all of the people all of the time. I'm a pretty well-known conservative in Campag world and I'd be the first to say that as I've watched the development of the WL group, I've had my "are you sure" moments ... but I've become used to the design ideas, I've had some minor input on some practical points and having allowed a bit of time to absorb some of the more unexpected things that WL has introduced, I'm pretty relaxed about them.

You have to look at what Campagnolo (or Shimano, or SRAM) are trying to acheive in the round.

For me, there's no real problem with a wired EPS system, any more than there was a problem with wired Di2. Yes, it's slower to build a bike and yes, where you have connecting cables running adjacent to brake cable outer or hydro hoses through restricted ports, it can be problematic - but a halfway competent builder can think & work their way around that.

But, if the market is making noisy demands for a wireless system, IMO, for it to be worthwhile, it has to be full wireless and that carries some penalties. One is derailleur size. A motor powerful enough to drive the cage where it needs to go against the tensions that can be generated by a rider has a certain size. A battery to power it has a certain size - the Campagnolo batteries have a slightly larger volume than SRAM but they also carry a built-in charge indicator. How that size is "distributed" in terms of the shape of the mechanism is always going to be a subjective question but the bulk can't be avoided. If aesthetically, it's seen as desirable that an "echo" of previous styling is included (as on the WL RD), then that also has an influence.

Campagnolo "could" have given you an extra battery to charge, made the RD smaller, and used a wireless equivalent to the Interface but the workload of the IF is, instead, split between the lever and the RD. That implies, for the RD, a greater space requirement, plus the protection of the hardware inside the RD from both vibration and impact. Even the SH 12s semi-wireless RD is bigger than it's 11s predecessor and they didn't have a battery interface to worry about.

I rue the absence of a rim brake option but we have to bend to the realities of the frame and wheel market as it is today. That reality is - disc brake. I don't like it, I think it's unneccessary and not aesthetically pleasing - but I'm not about to stop riding just because I can't ride a rim brake bike - which of course I can, because there are other options - other than professionally, I don't *have* to ride WL, if I don't want to.

It was always going to be a gamble changing to a two lever shift, both behind the brake lever. As a long-time Campagnolo user (since the 1980s), and having raced on every iteration of Campagnolo index shift lever, it has been a bit of a jorney for me to get used to the two finger shifting. I've ridden it for a little while now and find it no more troublesome to flip from my wired 12s EPS to WL and back again, than I do to ride Di2 or ETAP on the rare occasions that I have to do that.

Unlike practically every commentator on the two button design, I've actually ridden it in full winter gloves. It's not caused me a problem - other than that, as whenever it's cold enough to need winter gloves, I can't feel my fingers well anyway - but my fingers "know" where the buttons are. So will any user's once they're accustomed to the system.

The new lever configuration is a non-issue in terms of how it works, I recognise that some with smaller hands may find it takes some getting used to ... but the main criticism, after all the online BS about Caleb Ewan's thumb lever a couple of years ago - it's just not entirely what users were perhaps expecting.

Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? On WL, Campagnolo give you USB charging. Lots of the "why didn't they just" crew asked for that on EPS, not realising that the 12v EPS motors couldn't easily be run on a battery charged that way. in WL, you have a four-port charging hub with cables of sufficient length that all the batteries on the bike, which can be charged in situ, can be charged at once. 750km between charges max is no worse than a Garmin or a Wahoo BOLT & arguably a hell of a lot better than most Smartphones. Most electronic groupset owners suffer range anxiety anyway, apart from those that have someone to do their battery charging for them ... So even without my Campag SC hat on, I'd say this is a non-problem, sorry.

Shift quality - this is the one I really find perplexing.
At UCI on Tuesday, The students and I built a bike and we took it outside for them to ride. All praised the speed and accuracy of the shift. That activity attracted a bunch of other elite level riders to see what the bruhaha was - and all of them rode the bike - OK, not an exhaustive test and not a scientific sample but of the 15 or 16 people - ordinary riders, mind, not "bike testers" - did one complain about the shifting? No. There were 3 female road riders in there, all 3 jumped straight off ETAP bikes and onto WL and said the shifting was markedly faster. That's been my experience, too - so put me down as "confused of the UK" ...

Gear ratios. The 10T top model was one of the things that made me hesitate. I am a 53/39 kind of guy - if I could be, I'd still be a 53/42 kind of guy - not because I have a monster FTP - I don't - it's just that I am essentially very conservative and 53/42 and 54/44 for TTs, was what I grew up with and in the distant past when I was performing OK in competition, were the ratios I cut my teeth on. I adopted a 39T inner ring reluctantly and still don't find it intuitive, after all these years. I've never tried 50 / 34 other than on hire bikes but in those circumstances, I do know I didn't like it. However, for younger riders, unfettered by preconception, I can see that a 50 x 10T top gear is a tad bigger than even 53 x 11 and that if I really want to hamster-wheel my way up the Belle Filles des Planches, a tiny gravel-esque gear is the way to go. Personally I'd rather walk up the last bit. It's almost as fast and the scenery is stunning but then, I as a noted-in-my-club non-climber, have my reservations about taking races up climbs like that :-D

The gear ratio issue is just about what people are used to. The various commentary about smaller sprockets introducing more friction is actually a distraction - it is to some extent true and the smaller you make the smallest sprocket, in percentage terms, the bigger the problem gets - but a 9T sprocket made with modern materials, run with a chain made of modern materials and to modern design, lubricated with modern technology still comfortably outperforms anything that Freedy Maertens won the Worlds on, when people were incredulous that he'd use a 12T top ... yes, I really am that old! THe intermediate ratios are close to what can be acheived with "regular" cassettes and chainrings and I think that in 40 years time, when you are all riding magenetic bearing shaft drive bikes with ultra-low-friction CVT gears, those who grew up with 48-32 and 10-29 will be saying "don't like this infinitely variable gear much" ... I won't be around to see that, I shouldn't think - I'll be in Mechanic's Valhalla (with a bit of luck) looking down and wishing I could go out and play with "that" stuff ...
Graeme - my only question for you is why couldn't they have kept the thumb shifter as well, while having the two buttons behind the brake lever? It would be minor increase in weight and there are buttons there anyways - just make them programmable and you could program any combination you want.

Yes it was 50/50 but they annoyed 50% of their potential customers for no reason. Then if you want to use the two button solution for shifting you could program the thumbs to do something else.

Or will you be able to program that little button where the thumb lever was to shift gears? Why would that have been so hard to do with initial release of the group?

RTW
in the industry
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm

by RTW

rollinslow wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:09 pm
Yes, excellent informative post by Graeme.

Groupset is still ugly though unfortunately. The starting point for a top-tier product that is barely used for professional racing anyway is an appearance and finish consistent with luxury. Put that Rolex next to the Seiko. They both tell time but the Rolex fit and finish is incredible. I expect that of Campagnolo and it to be carbon, titanium, CULT ceramic bearings and beautiful. No amount of function will fix that #1 necessity for me at this price point and what Campagnolo has established itself as.

Without being a luxury item as outlined above, it is no longer a luxury.
I think it is a mistake to compare Seiko to Rolex, because Seiko would point to Grand Seiko and say 'this is our Rolex'.

I might be wrong, but if Rolex were to release their first update to their flagship in years and the internet was awash with fans saying similar things to what Campagnolo fans are saying, then I think they'd be worried.

The argument that 'very few people have seen it or ridden it so they don't know' would be true of any major product launch at this stage. But I can't think of a reception to a recent groupset launch that has been so flat.

Still - I am going to purchase an SR12 mech rim groupset in 2023, because it seems I am that person.

rollinslow
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Location: New York

by rollinslow

RTW wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:40 pm
rollinslow wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:09 pm
Yes, excellent informative post by Graeme.

Groupset is still ugly though unfortunately. The starting point for a top-tier product that is barely used for professional racing anyway is an appearance and finish consistent with luxury. Put that Rolex next to the Seiko. They both tell time but the Rolex fit and finish is incredible. I expect that of Campagnolo and it to be carbon, titanium, CULT ceramic bearings and beautiful. No amount of function will fix that #1 necessity for me at this price point and what Campagnolo has established itself as.

Without being a luxury item as outlined above, it is no longer a luxury.
I think it is a mistake to compare Seiko to Rolex, because Seiko would point to Grand Seiko and say 'this is our Rolex'.

I might be wrong, but if Rolex were to release their first update to their flagship in years and the internet was awash with fans saying similar things to what Campagnolo fans are saying, then I think they'd be worried.

The argument that 'very few people have seen it or ridden it so they don't know' would be true of any major product launch at this stage. But I can't think of a reception to a recent groupset launch that has been so flat.

Still - I am going to purchase an SR12 mech rim groupset in 2023, because it seems I am that person.
The luxury watch reference was to fit and finish. If you want to call yourself luxury and charge a luxury price, it shoudo have a fit and finish to match.

Grand Seiko is beautiful as well.
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RTW
in the industry
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by RTW

I think we are shouting our agreement at each other. :-)

HiFi
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:51 pm

by HiFi

I think the thing that will have hit anyone with a belief in campag is the length of the charge sheet. And that the more minor ones could surely have been taken care of before launch (focus groups). Besides hearing about sharp edges, power meter blanks, and lack of satellite buttons, my list includes:
  • When I saw the buttons around the thumb shifter area in the patents I thought they'd cracked it; a lever that could be programmed for users coming from other brands and existing users.
  • Laptops and phones no longer have removable batteries; if you can't swap them then don't bother making them removable.
  • Looked like the branding had moved to copper, see bora wheels etc, and I had looked forward to that. The copper branding is there on the SRWL boxes, but not on the product(s)? So still mismatched with the wheels.
  • The organic shape of the old SR12 chainset showed what could be achieved in carbon, but now replaced with a shape that could be just as easily be black-painted alloy (ie shimano).
  • Was it really necessary to move the RD so far into ugly-land, the SR11 RD used to be a thing of carbon beauty.
  • With everything else in place, N3W on the wheels, programmable firmware for RD movement, then we could have both 12 and 13sp cassettes as part of the group. 13sp would provide the bragging rights, but wireless 2x12 alone is part of the flat response; it's just too 'me-too'. It's like the 13sp lead with N3W has been squandered. I know 13sp needs to clear the spokes, but put the tight blocks out in 12 (as has been done) and wider blocks in 13.
Last edited by HiFi on Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Bobbyc123
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:40 am

by Bobbyc123

+1 awesome info Graeme!

The note on shift quality is V confusing and contradictory to media reports. Be interested to see how Graeme compares it to the latest Sram and Shimano groups.

Really interested to see how this progresses when more people get their hands on it.

sevencyclist
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:36 am

by sevencyclist

Thank you Graeme for thoughtful input! Appreciate many thoughts going into current presentation. Time will tell how this evolves.

Personally I love the history of Campy and long to keep a part of that past on my current bikes.

keaton
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:03 pm

by keaton

graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 am

Gear ratios. The 10T top model was one of the things that made me hesitate. I am a 53/39 kind of guy - if I could be, I'd still be a 53/42 kind of guy - not because I have a monster FTP - I don't - it's just that I am essentially very conservative and 53/42 and 54/44 for TTs, was what I grew up with and in the distant past when I was performing OK in competition, were the ratios I cut my teeth on. I adopted a 39T inner ring reluctantly and still don't find it intuitive, after all these years. I've never tried 50 / 34 other than on hire bikes but in those circumstances, I do know I didn't like it. However, for younger riders, unfettered by preconception, I can see that a 50 x 10T top gear is a tad bigger than even 53 x 11 and that if I really want to hamster-wheel my way up the Belle Filles des Planches, a tiny gravel-esque gear is the way to go. Personally I'd rather walk up the last bit. It's almost as fast and the scenery is stunning but then, I as a noted-in-my-club non-climber, have my reservations about taking races up climbs like that :-D
So well said - thank you so much graeme.

The gear ratios are the most concerning part for me as well. I will try it, but I have doubts I will like it. Couldn't ride the 50/34 personally. I am 33yo but I guess the time period I came up in, and racing, made my riding style prefer the 53/39

I purchased chorus 11 when it came out, scraped all my money together. Was a big commitment at the time for a kid coming off shimano 10s. I always convinced the wheel truck driver to put my wheels inside the cab because they were 11s 8) I always wanted campy, I think a lot of this had to do with the pro tour, as well as wanting to be different. I wish campy could get back on more teams, there really is something to racing heritage and win on Sunday sell on Monday. IMO they hit a goldmine with Pog, and should have signed him in the way specialized signs athletes.

-I am a die-hard rim brake user, the abandonment of rim brakes has been faster than I ever thought possible - even on custom-made frames

-So funny the way people talk about meh shifting - I highly doubt this. It always seems like campy is swimming upstream with industry folks, and legacy media. Bike shop grouches always talk shit on campy (at least in the midwest). I saw someone else comment about ultegra on a wifes bike, why is this always a thing lol, campy on all my bikes but di2 on hers, honestly part of it is because I don't want her to battle a shop mechanic if she needs to go in without me lolol.

-Funny how many people seem quick to trash this launch, and hardly seem familiar with the previous generation. A few comments about 'what? no titanium cassette?!'

-Im gonna miss the thumb shifter. It is what it is, but I don't really get the logic. Not in the pro tour much rn, so not sure if thats why? People always complain about the thumb shifter who don't ride campy, I don't think those people are coming over just because they dropped it. So all they did with removing it is make a big portion of their loyal fans kinda sad.

-I feel like they should have kept with tradition and been the first to go 13s road. Would have upped the cool factor a bit. Can't decide if I think they shoulda gone semi-wireless, that's a tossup for me. The size of the derailleurs is not great looking, but I think wireless is great. Who cares if I have to charge it more often, used to that with our other electronics. The charging looks very simple, EPS charge port is a nightmare

-The graphics are a bit boring, the brass from the Ultras they have been doing could be neat to see.

BenCousins
Posts: 1366
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:46 am

by BenCousins

RTW wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:44 pm
I think we are shouting our agreement at each other. :-)
And the argument is 'I don't want this thing' but they shout 'nobody will want this thing'.

I don't want this thing (it's too expensive, EPS is an ok price but not this), but I'd never suggest it is a 'flop, disaster'. The hyperbole!!!

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r_mutt
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:33 pm

by r_mutt

HiFi wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:47 pm
  • Laptops and phones no longer have removable batteries; if you can't swap them then don't bother making them removable.
Aren't these chargeable off the bike? How isn't that of some value if one doesn't have electricity where they keep their bike and need to charge remotely?Another point is the ability to have a spare battery if one has fear of running out of charge mid-ride?

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