Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

BenCousins wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:23 pm
I don't want this thing (it's too expensive, EPS is an ok price but not this), but I'd never suggest it is a 'flop, disaster'. The hyperbole!!!
I don't even think EPS was an ok price. EPS was around $4,000 and hard to find because of the pandemic supply shortages. Dura Ace Di2 can be found today for $2700 online. $4000 vs $2700. Now it's $5000 vs $2700 or $1600 for Ultegra. And a large hole in the middle for someone who needs a resonably priced group and a power meter.

I drive a Japanese car now. It may be time to switch to Japanese groupsets.

by Weenie


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Xabi
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:55 pm

by Xabi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:29 pm
Xabi wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:43 pm
Personally I see more negatives than positives on a wireless groupset. I personally don't see the point if it's not on a full suspension MTB frame... For road frames it would be a plus if hydraulic hoses were wireless too.

10 minutes charge with a cheapo Chinese external battery that you can use any to charge any usb gadget gives you longer ride time than any removable battery on wireless groupsets.

New campagnolo derraileurs look bulky and ugly, definitely don't look like the money they cost. On the other hand I like the looks of the levers and brake calipers, ergonomically I can't say anything because I haven't touched them, yet.
I don’t need 10 minutes to charge with a removable battery. I keep two spares in my toolbox on race days. Swapping batteries takes seconds. For extreme circumstances, you can even stick a spare battery in your tool roll / saddle pack.

This is perhaps the one major issue with differently shaped batteries. I’d have the option of only carrying one emergency spare eTap battery, but with SR WL I would need to carry two.
I can do around 2k-3k with my 6 yo Di2 battery (almost 6k on it), I usually charge it at home. A tiny powerbank (cheaper than SRAM, campy or Chinese knock offs) can give you a very high mileage in the time it takes you to get from casual clothes to bike clothes. No need to worry about separate rechargable batteries and no worries with disposable (landfill) batteries on levers.

12s Shimano experience is degraded (half battery life) when run semiwireless for no benefit other than 1 hair thin wire to route with hidraulic hoses that will always have to be routed anyway.

On the sram and campagnolo side there is no way out of the ugly bulkyness, not fixable.

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

I've reflected on Graeme's defence/explanation of SR WL here and he makes many good points. However, he does bring up one thing that I've taken issue with elsewhere and in the past. That is, the 'Campy = Rolex' comparison.

It's self-serving and simply inaccurate.

First, the only people actually making that comparison are within Campagnolo or really, really dedicated enthusiasts - and they are missing the point. The danger to Campagnolo is not that SR WL doesn't work as well as DADi2 (it may or may not do, I haven't ridden it) it is that the brand is not aspirational, especially to those under 40, in the way that a Rolex is. A Rolex, outside the watchweenie world, is a status symbol; to buy a Rolex is to show you have made it. People who know nothing about watches know what a Rolex means.

I am not being unkind to Campagnolo, I don't think, to suggest that people do not view a SR WL groupset the same way.

Moreover, any company with any sense cannot afford to have an ageing demographic (unless that demographic will be replaced with other ageing buyers - i.e. a hearing aid manufacturer :wink: ). Who buys Campagnolo when the >50 crowd struggle to turn a pedal in anger or decide it's not worth replacing their bikes? Even worse, Campagnolo have risked accelerating that process by forcing all the diehards (who have, in the main, plenty of the disposable) onto disc if they want the new flagship.

You don't see Rolex doing things like that. They have kept their essential designs the same. They haven't moved to quartz; they haven't fundamentally changed their aesthetic.

Rolex would have kept the thumbshifter, if you'll excuse a forced analogy.

Now maybe the guys at Campagnolo have this all figured out, are chuckling into their aperitivos as I write, and the pricing strategy is designed specifically to make the brand the Rolex equivalent. And here the analogy works a bit better; it doesn't matter that it's not obviously better than something cheaper, because that's not the point. But the transition to that status isn't automatic and it isn't without (huge) risk.

It's always easier to criticise than to create (hence the old saying 'any fool can criticise, and most fools do') but the fact that so many individuals don't so much dislike the groupset as think the brand is missing a series of open goals has to sound a dim warning bell somewhere in Vicenza.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

With the Campagnolo/Rolex idea, you are getting too specific. It's just the idea, as in, Campagnolo wants to be the Rolex of the groupset world. They aren't there yet. Can they get to the point where even people who buy Dura Ace wish they could afford Super Record WL? My guess is no.

From the outside it looks like lots of small bike makers want to be exclusive and boutique. Colnago got bought by some private equity and a C series frame is now $7,200 retail. It's crazy money for a carbon frame but they probably think it will appeal to wealthy guys who show off their bikes at the club ride or the cafe.

People buy Verblen goods when they think it gives them status. Even if Dura Ace is arguably better in every way, some may buy SR because of what it says about them and their Colnago or Pinarello.

Can Campagnolo only survive on the high end and forsake the folks that want Chorus/Potenza/Athena price points? It's not clear.

Xabi
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:55 pm

by Xabi

My dad had always been a campagnolo record-super record user, moved to 11s mechanical ultegra on his ebike and never looked back to campagnolo again.

I think that the last campagnolo thing that could attract the young crowd were Zonda wheels, cheap, light, fast and durable... But right now they are not attractive compared to Chinese carbon cheap wheelsets anymore.

robeambro
Posts: 1829
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

I think we could try and predict Campy's demise all we like, but they'll probably outlive us. I think it's fair to say that they're not maximising their potential in terms of growth and profits, but I doubt their survival is at risk.

I agree with most points being made, not so much on the fact that it was a risk to be "forcing all the diehards (who have, in the main, plenty of the disposable) onto disc". I mean, most of those diehards don't buy the latest and greatest and would rather (rightfully) brag about how their post WW2 3 speed groupset is still shifting flawlessly - so why make a product that appeals to them?

rollinslow
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Location: New York

by rollinslow

BenCousins wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:23 pm
RTW wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:44 pm
I think we are shouting our agreement at each other. :-)
And the argument is 'I don't want this thing' but they shout 'nobody will want this thing'.

I don't want this thing (it's too expensive, EPS is an ok price but not this), but I'd never suggest it is a 'flop, disaster'. The hyperbole!!!
What are talking about? You realize most the people on here either own SR level campy or plan to get it. It potentially is a disaster for Campy for all the reasons so far. I hope it isn't but it is certainly possible.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523

AJS914
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by AJS914

As I said, I've been riding Campagnolo for like 40 years. I see their demise and long and slow and still continuing. When I started riding, everybody was on a serious road bike was riding Campagnolo. Now everybody is on Shimano/Sram and I've been the only guy in town on Campagnolo for years. Soon, Campagnolo may not even have a world tour team.

rollinslow
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Location: New York

by rollinslow

r_mutt wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:33 pm
graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 am


Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.


Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? On WL, Campagnolo give you USB charging. Lots of the "why didn't they just" crew asked for that on EPS, not realising that the 12v EPS motors couldn't easily be run on a battery charged that way. in WL, you have a four-port charging hub with cables of sufficient length that all the batteries on the bike, which can be charged in situ, can be charged at once. 750km between charges max is no worse than a Garmin or a Wahoo BOLT & arguably a hell of a lot better than most Smartphones. Most electronic groupset owners suffer range anxiety anyway, apart from those that have someone to do their battery charging for them ... So even without my Campag SC hat on, I'd say this is a non-problem, sorry.
I wrote on another forum yesterday wondering how it was possible for such strong critisism by so many who have yet to ride or even see the group in person. I am as perplexed as you are.

As far as the battery charging on EPS V1-3, I will respectfully disagree. I was one of the many who broke pins on the charger after ham-fisting it into the port. I had to go to a shop and buy a new one to ride. Even knowing what I know now about the EPS charger's idiosyncrasies, I am always nervous when plugging in for a charge.
A big part is the appearance and specs/build materials to start. If it's visually unappealing to most people you'll get a pretty quick negative sentiment to start with.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523

BenCousins
Posts: 1366
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:46 am

by BenCousins

rollinslow wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:24 pm
BenCousins wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:23 pm
RTW wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:44 pm
I think we are shouting our agreement at each other. :-)
And the argument is 'I don't want this thing' but they shout 'nobody will want this thing'.

I don't want this thing (it's too expensive, EPS is an ok price but not this), but I'd never suggest it is a 'flop, disaster'. The hyperbole!!!
What are talking about? You realize most the people on here either own SR level campy or plan to get it. It potentially is a disaster for Campy for all the reasons so far. I hope it isn't but it is certainly possible.
So because some of the people who bought SR in the past don't want this, it's a disaster? So you think Campagnolo's business plan is to sell this group to all the people who bought SR in the past? Why did they price it higher than EPS then? Why do they still make EPS? Why do they still make SR mechanical?

BenCousins
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by BenCousins

AJS914 wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:28 pm
BenCousins wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:23 pm
I don't want this thing (it's too expensive, EPS is an ok price but not this), but I'd never suggest it is a 'flop, disaster'. The hyperbole!!!
I don't even think EPS was an ok price. EPS was around $4,000 and hard to find because of the pandemic supply shortages. Dura Ace Di2 can be found today for $2700 online. $4000 vs $2700. Now it's $5000 vs $2700 or $1600 for Ultegra. And a large hole in the middle for someone who needs a resonably priced group and a power meter.

I drive a Japanese car now. It may be time to switch to Japanese groupsets.
I just checked prices on bike24 in Europe and EPS is the same price as SRAM and Cheaper than Shimano.

But having said that you are just telling me that you don't want something. Neither do I, but how is that useful? By all means make an argument that there might not be enough sales volume that this price point for Campagnolo to make a profit, or that the tech here won't trickle down to the lower end groups fast enough to get a good ROI on the R&D, but 'I'm not going to buy it', how is that a useful or interesting discussion? That along with 'it's ugly', it's like teenagers' comments on a YouTube video...

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zappafile123
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by zappafile123

BenCousins wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:23 pm
RTW wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:44 pm
I think we are shouting our agreement at each other. :-)
And the argument is 'I don't want this thing' but they shout 'nobody will want this thing'.

I don't want this thing (it's too expensive, EPS is an ok price but not this), but I'd never suggest it is a 'flop, disaster'. The hyperbole!!!
It is hyperbole. But, if you scream into the winds in a place like weightweenies where there are brand reps, you might just get a flicker of attention and hopefully nudge the prospect of a second thought for next time. The pole isnt looking too good which vindicates the knee jerk anger reaction of the OP.
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AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I'll post what I want, Ben. I'm not going to buy it because it's over priced. I want to buy a modern Chorus level group this year because I just bought an integrated frameset. I'm not convinced mechanical through a headset is worth the aggravation. I also want a power meter and Campagnolo has no options other than Power2Max that cost more than a Chorus groupset. Campagnolo has a big hole in their product line.

And I ask, why am I holding on to Campagnolo? Because it was the pinnacle when I started riding? Because I thought it was better looking than Shimano? In 2023, I don't see anything in Campagnolos product line for me right now and nothing on the horizon. It's kind of sad.

This is more of a philosophical reaction to this groupset and Campagnolo current direction.

BTW, Ben, I'm still seeing full EPS groupsets at more than Dura Ace. Bike24 has a partial group. In any case, why should I be buying discontinued 11 speed when I'm buying a new groupset today. That's ridiculous.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Sock3t wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:44 pm
The further we stray from mechanical shifting, the further we stray from affordable groupsets.
Except it's actually cheaper to produce electronic groupsets - particularly once the initial design work is done.

No ratchets, no springs, no cam mechanism, pull ratios or materials wear testing... no intricate small parts (like a mechanical watch). No complex assembly - especially at the shifter. Just a printed circuit and some logic chips. Motors are very cheap too - particularly in bulk.

Electronic sounds fancy but as a feat of engineering and manufacturing they are actually WAY easier.

Manufacturers must be loving it - half the cost to produce, double (or triple) the RRP.

by Weenie


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r_mutt
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:33 pm

by r_mutt

robertbb wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:35 am
Sock3t wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:44 pm
The further we stray from mechanical shifting, the further we stray from affordable groupsets.
Except it's actually cheaper to produce electronic groupsets - particularly once the initial design work is done.

No ratchets, no springs, no cam mechanism, pull ratios or materials wear testing... no intricate small parts (like a mechanical watch). No complex assembly - especially at the shifter. Just a printed circuit and some logic chips. Motors are very cheap too - particularly in bulk.

Electronic sounds fancy but as a feat of engineering and manufacturing they are actually WAY easier.

Manufacturers must be loving it - half the cost to produce, double (or triple) the RRP.
R&D? Doesn't that play into it?

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