Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

polpy
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:05 am

by polpy

raggedtrousers wrote:This might be a long post, so TL/DR - I don't get what Campagnolo are thinking and I'm frustrated with their fanboys.

I'm actually a Campag fan and really, really liked Record 11. I think Chorus 12 ticked a lot of boxes but was pretty finicky and there were problems with inconsistent spring tension out of the factory. Anyway, I was quite excited for this, in the hope it would trickle down to Chorus level in a year or 2. Now... well, it would have to be at less than UDi2 price, which ain't going to happen.

My issues are these:
- the death of the thumbshifter, the bulky derailleurs, disc only and the new ratios won't appeal to the traditional Campag buyers
- there's nothing obvious that will turn DADi2 and Red AXS buyers to Campag
- Campag stubbornly refuse to make Ekar electronic despite obvious demand
- Campag (at least for the moment) stubbornly refuse to make an electronic level groupset below SR (despite the very obvious way the market is going)
- they are now making very lukewarm noises about continuing with high level mech groups, again alienating their core market.

The way things are going, they are likely to turn off their existing buyers (generally over 50, traditional, affluent) and not attract many new ones. I'm worried they are trying to move themselves to a niche luxury brand without the product to back that up.

In fact, exactly that argument is tiresomely trotted out on other forums to excuse Campag's failure to listen and their high prices. Campag=Rolex, or Lamborghini: I hear it again and again. Except no-one who isn't already a die-hard fan thinks that. Most people think it's a bit dated, very expensive, and that Shimano and SRAM actually work better. They're not Lamborghini; they are Maserati, in the 1970s or 80s. And that the pros all choose Shimano instead says it all about performance.

I've never said this before but they need to get their act in gear soon or they'll become an irrelevance within 5 years.
I am with you, but Campag is neither Rolex nor Lamborghini. They may think it, but then they dont understand luxury goods like watches and cars.
To me it looks like the R&D Department had no clue what their goal was and just "produced something". You know, a bit of Sram here, a bit of Shimano there, a bit of everything. But since the good parts are patented they kind of got it really wrong.

I have an 11s Record on a bike which i really like but if it needs to be replaced for whatever reason, there is nothing like that in the current campag portfolio so why should i go campa...

Mocs123
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 9:19 pm

by Mocs123

Not that I think Campy is better, but the Pro's don't "choose" Shimano in a lot of cases, they just use whatever groupset manufacturer sponsors them just like pretty much all the other equipment they use - bikes, clothing, wheels, tires, helmets....

That being said Campy does seem to be working themselves out of the market - I have 50 riders in my club, and 350 members in another nearby club and while I'm sure there are a couple more, I only know one rider on Campy - and he has 10 speed Record. Of course we also seem to be pretty heavy Garmin on the bike computer front and Continental on the tire front for whatever reason.
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raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

de zwarten wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:52 pm
In defense of the shifter lever position:

You can customize all of those buttons.

For example:
you can have right upper for upshifting the cassette, left upper for downshifting the cassette. That is EXACTLY like Etap.
You can have right lower for upshifting the FD, and left lower for downshifting the RD.
This customization is helpful, e.g. when you have small hands (you won't shift the frond chainrings as much, so you assign the lowest / harder to reach shifting levers left and right for those shifting actions).
The thumbshifters were literally perfect for this. Set the paddles up Etap/AXS style, and use the thumbshifters to shift the FD.

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

de zwarten wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:52 pm
In defense of the shifter lever position:

You can customize all of those buttons.

For example:
you can have right upper for upshifting the cassette, left upper for downshifting the cassette. That is EXACTLY like Etap.
You can have right lower for upshifting the FD, and left lower for downshifting the RD.
This customization is helpful, e.g. when you have small hands (you won't shift the frond chainrings as much, so you assign the lowest / harder to reach shifting levers left and right for those shifting actions).
agree on that........I am not going to give an opinion if the 2 buttons of the new levers are or are not fully located (epro is the most logical option)
I am going to "mess" with staunch defenders of the thumb button.....

Has anyone first thought about why it is located there? it will not be why? When Campagnolo integrated brake and gear levers, it was the best option I found for it, right? and kept it that way until now

As I was going, the thumb push system is less ergonomic than that of Shimano and Sram...as much as I "like" to operate it from the lower part of the handlebar

Where do we hold on for the longest time on our bike rides... up on the levers, right? and much longer than below...is it really more comfortable and useful to change with the thumb held on top? when with Shimano/Sram you can do it with 3-4 different fingers.....


even worse when grabbed from the front....
VA.jpg
VA.jpg (25.22 KiB) Viewed 907 times
without changing the position of the hand or losing grip... you can activate the crown/plate lowering pusher with 2 different fingers......in Campagnolo? where is the thumb?

BdaGhisallo
Posts: 3261
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm

by BdaGhisallo

Mocs123 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:02 pm
Not that I think Campy is better, but the Pro's don't "choose" Shimano in a lot of cases, they just use whatever groupset manufacturer sponsors them just like pretty much all the other equipment they use - bikes, clothing, wheels, tires, helmets....

That being said Campy does seem to be working themselves out of the market - I have 50 riders in my club, and 350 members in another nearby club and while I'm sure there are a couple more, I only know one rider on Campy - and he has 10 speed Record. Of course we also seem to be pretty heavy Garmin on the bike computer front and Continental on the tire front for whatever reason.
Yes and no. The riders themselves don't choose what material they use, the teams do. And many of the teams that do not have sponsorship from Shimano choose to go out and buy Shimano. These are the teams that combine shifters and derrailleurs with cranks from other non-Shimano sources, like EF do or don't use Shimano wheels. Now Shimano will offer them heavily discounted prices on the parts, but these teams are choosing them and paying for them.

patchandscruff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:58 am

by patchandscruff

polpy wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:55 pm
They may think it, but then they dont understand luxury goods like watches and cars.
But you do yeah?

Sanchpanza
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:34 am

by Sanchpanza

Some strong views either way on this, and everyone is entitled to their own view.

For what its worth, I like the fact Campagnolo have taken their time, and in many ways stolen the best bits from the competiton and then added their own touches.

The silly patents that SCAM have manged to get passed, limit in many ways the entire market, and I can see why some choices have been made by campag.

The brand is , was, and will forever remain the premium group set manufacturer, as much as any SCAM or shimano fan boys want to stamp their feet otherwise.

Not being able to afford it, or Campagnolo not having th marketing budget to continue to dominate the pro peleton doesnt change that.

Their is room for all.... SCAM is your citroen, Shimano is your ford, and Campagnolo is your VW......its just better. Hand made, lasts, looks great, light.

Innovation undoubtedly means this is the V1 , and is their a huge market ... maybe not yet, but if the tech trickles down to chorus etc.... I think maybe people are getting a bit giddy over a percieved demise....

Campag is a fabulous story in a business overtaken my mass produced nonsense.... people who like campag ( and for the record I have HAD shimano, campag, and SCAM ) seem to love campag... and whilst shimano and SCAM lose sales to the chinese rubbish, for exactly the same reasons...it doesn have that same appeal, its just the current fad..... I think Campag will only get stronger....

Time will tell.....either way, dont stress, ride your bike, enjoy your bike.... room for all..

usr
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by usr

Hand-injection-molded

RTW
in the industry
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by RTW

Sanchpanza wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:02 pm
Some strong views either way on this, and everyone is entitled to their own view.

For what its worth, I like the fact Campagnolo have taken their time, and in many ways stolen the best bits from the competiton and then added their own touches.

The silly patents that SCAM have manged to get passed, limit in many ways the entire market, and I can see why some choices have been made by campag.

The brand is , was, and will forever remain the premium group set manufacturer, as much as any SCAM or shimano fan boys want to stamp their feet otherwise.

Not being able to afford it, or Campagnolo not having th marketing budget to continue to dominate the pro peleton doesnt change that.

Their is room for all.... SCAM is your citroen, Shimano is your ford, and Campagnolo is your VW......its just better. Hand made, lasts, looks great, light.

Innovation undoubtedly means this is the V1 , and is their a huge market ... maybe not yet, but if the tech trickles down to chorus etc.... I think maybe people are getting a bit giddy over a percieved demise....

Campag is a fabulous story in a business overtaken my mass produced nonsense.... people who like campag ( and for the record I have HAD shimano, campag, and SCAM ) seem to love campag... and whilst shimano and SCAM lose sales to the chinese rubbish, for exactly the same reasons...it doesn have that same appeal, its just the current fad..... I think Campag will only get stronger....

Time will tell.....either way, dont stress, ride your bike, enjoy your bike.... room for all..
I stopped reading at 'SCAM'. You may not care (I'm sure you don't) but calling names completely devalues your post. I am sure that there are patents which Campagnolo have defended too.

Vespasianus
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:15 pm

by Vespasianus

1. Outrageously large derailleurs

Meh.

1b. logo aesthetics - thumbs down
Meh.

2a. Stupid shifter button design
Meh.

2b. No thumb shifter
Agree. The existing "dog" design or the EKAR works perfectly fine.

3. 750-1000km range?
Meh. This is fine.

4. SRAM gear ratios
Meh. This is fine.

5. No update to the brakes/crankset?
Meh. A crankset is a crankset. The brakes are excellent and remain excellent. What is a huge miss is paying that price without a power meter.

6. No rim brake option
Meh. Horse is not only dead but rotting.

7. Apparently, the shifting sucks?
Meh. Not concerned and think it will get sorted.

9. Price
Meh. Same as SR EPS. Could not afford that and can't afford thhis.

Conclusion
Meh. I like the Campag design and am really sad to see it change. I do agree that this could have been better bridged. Have a thumb button as well. EKAR is fantastic to me and if they go electronic - which is STUPID to me - and drop the thumb shifter, I will be very, very sad.
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joeyb1000
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:37 pm

by joeyb1000

I'm not getting into the hyperbole. But, I was going to upgrade my S&S Coupler travel bike (record 12S) and then buying TT shifters so I could use the derailleurs on my TT bike (Athena EPS). Both are rim brake, so I can't.

joeyb1000
Posts: 488
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by joeyb1000

RTW wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:37 am
zappafile123 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:20 am
I think it's also worth adding that both SR mechanical and EPS 12spd groupsets weren't all that good either (aside from the disc brakes which were a standout at the time). This is a continuation of a worrying downward trend.
My experience of Campagnolo is that they have a bit of a thing about getting things to market, perhaps before they are totally polished. SR11 wasn't great for year 1. I moved to Dura Ace as a result. I am now about to pull the trigger on SR12 mechanical rim - but this launch and that experience make me wonder if I am going to regret not purchasing Dura Ace mechanical / rim instead - I know I would have to find a 9100 group.
I'm not sure what both of you are basing your comments on. I have 12s eps and mechanical. EPS works great, and 12s mechanical is fantastic.

TLN
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:54 am
The batteries are removable. The inclusion of onboard charging is no doubt part of some patent minefield circumvention.

I'm convinced people complaining about (4) think they ride bikes differently than they actually do, and I love that the AXS app removes all doubt. If more people could see this kind of data collected from their rides, they'd be at ease with the 10t cog.

Here's a fun one from last night:
What app is that? I don't recall seeing anything like that in my sram app
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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
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by wheelsONfire

joeyb1000 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:52 pm
I'm not getting into the hyperbole. But, I was going to upgrade my S&S Coupler travel bike (record 12S) and then buying TT shifters so I could use the derailleurs on my TT bike (Athena EPS). Both are rim brake, so I can't.
You are just touching this subject as i did. I got ahead of myself when it came to rim brake options. When i noted Srams new Force wasn't going to be released as rim brake version, i started to get that a forthcoming RED might not do either. And if the FD would give up on my Etap (could be in a week, could be years later).
But i thought, what if even RED AXS rim brake is gone when that happens. So for that reason i actually upgraded to AXS.
I have asked Sram techs why they abandoned the Etap owners when it came to exchange parts yada yada. They told me the wireless tech that was used, wasn't available so that was that. I hope it will be a better situation talking AXS. But who knows!?
Maybe you also would need to check AXS red if you want something of the soon extinct!?
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jih
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm

by jih

Feels like a lost opportunity with electronic to include a thumb button, plus two buttons behind the lever, plus a Shimano-style button on top of the horns, then just let people program whichever they prefer.

Have thumb buttons? Great, use them for your cycle computer or to turn your lights on. Love them? Cool, use them for half your shifting and make the two behind the lever do the same thing.

Personally, when I ride shimano I like to get aero and end up using the buttons on top of the horns > 50% of the time. Those buttons are a killer feature for me doing TTs on road bikes.

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