Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:50 am
It may be possible to reprogtam the Mode button as a "thumb button" - it actually sits almost exactly where, ergonomically, the thumb button used to.
Something like that, perhaps with a silly cheap detachable plastic thingy to allow for at least a bit of downward push actuation should have been made part of the communication from day one. It would not matter if it was so bad in practice that literally everybody eventually converted to a "shi" configuration, that would still do the job of being respectful to those who literally bought into their claims of thumb lever superiority all those decades. And it would also prevent much of the negative halo effect SRW has on all groups with a lever arrangement that now suddenly is apparently not good enough for World Tour. That one will even affect Ekar to some amount'

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

solarider wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:50 pm
Thanks once again to Graeme for the inside line and insight. As always a valuable and thought provoking contribution.

As you rightly say, a lot of armchair criticism has been levelled at the groupset. However, much of it doesn't really need hands on experience to be valid.

A couple of conclusions for me as a potential purchaser.

1) The marketeers have set the price almost despite the market. The price hasn't been so much set as value for money given the spec as it has as an intentional halo Veblen product. I would feel ripped off buying it rather than a sense that I was paying a fair price for the very best product in the market. The Campagnolo tax has been overestimated.

2) It doesn't feel like the finished article has made its way to market. Campagnolo lost me at V1 of EPS when they released V2 and then V3 with very little backwards compatibility. Having been an early adopter I simply don't want to risk buying V1 of WL when there are already so many obvious updates required in V2. The sense that they have rushed the announcement is further reinforced by the lack of availability. With the latest SRAM launches the product has been on the shelf on the day of announcement. Even with Shimano's well documented supply issues the availability of Dura Ace and Ultegra was pretty close to the announcement. Fine to level the criticism that 'none of you have tried it yet', but even if I wanted to I couldn't today. Even the only World Tour pro team using Campagnolo don't have enough groupsets to equip all of the riderswould be better, . They don't have supply, they don't have all of the components (blips, power meter etc) and there are some obvious improvements still to be made.

I so want to love this product and I would dearly love to like it enough to buy it. Maybe a close up might change my mind. I think it might be a while before I see it in the wild.
I'm not a commercial guy so can't comment on pricing.
RRP doesn't really apply any more (much though I think it should) - one reason why I don't get involved in commercial any more thanI *have to* ...

On EPS, I don't want to rehash old arguments but there reverse compatibility was good from v1 through v3.

Lets break it down ...
1. All v1 parts bar charger, PU and IF had full interchangeability up to V3.
2. The only v2 transmission part that wasn't compatible with v1 was the 2018 and later FD ... OK, chargers changed but they remained compatible up to and including v4. a v1 IF will actually work quite happily with a v2 PU, you just don't get the fault indications or the ability to program front mech stroke width which was mostly used only in order to workaround 3rd party cranksets or out of spec rear triangle geometry.
3. v3, because it dispensed with the charge port on the frame by it's nature required the new IF - but a lot of functionality got added in.
4. v4, because of the fact that 12s is not 11s, is not inter-compatible save in one, little used respect - 11s bar end shifters are compatible with the v3 TT interface through to a 12s PU.

After 10 years of 11s, I think that's a hell of a lot better than SH who launched a 10s system that they junked a year later, if favour of an 11s system which has no reverse compatibility at all.

In the Velotech garage, we have:
3 bikes all running original v1 FD, RD and levers on v3 PUs and IFs, two are service bikes for events, one is my own bike.
1 bike still on a full v1 system, oriiginal as supplied to me in Nov 2010, probably done 40 - 45,000 km. This gets used as a teaching aid and as an event service bike.
2 bikes still on v2 systems, still regularly used as event service bikes. They have all original v1 parts.

So apart frommy professional experience of teaching mechanics about and installing an awful lot of EPS, I've got a lot of direct experience with using, abusing and maintaining it too ...

Re the teams using the previous crankset - I keep saying it and will continuto say it until some commentators get to understand - what the teams do has nothing to do with availability or best practice - they are a test bed as well as a marketing resource. If Campagnolo had to find another 20 groups, they would simply take them off retail orders. In this case they are lookling at the practicalities within a team environment of running parallel systems - the only way to do that, these days, is to wait until public launch.

Many on this forum have asked about reverse compatibility ITRW ... well, one way that gets determined, after all the modelling and giving it to the SCs and so on to road test, giving it to ambassadors and others to put through it's paces - is to get the guys who kick the sh*t out of the kit in ways that you and I never will, to run it and see what happens.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

usr wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:15 am
graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:50 am
It may be possible to reprogtam the Mode button as a "thumb button" - it actually sits almost exactly where, ergonomically, the thumb button used to.
Something like that, perhaps with a silly cheap detachable plastic thingy to allow for at least a bit of downward push actuation should have been made part of the communication from day one. It would not matter if it was so bad in practice that literally everybody eventually converted to a "shi" configuration, that would still do the job of being respectful to those who literally bought into their claims of thumb lever superiority all those decades. And it would also prevent much of the negative halo effect SRW has on all groups with a lever arrangement that now suddenly is apparently not good enough for World Tour. That one will even affect Ekar to some amount'
I'd say that the thumb lever was never about being "better" - it was different & some found it more ergonomic than Shimano.
I prefer it - but then, as I said in my original piece, I've used the thumb lever since 1993 so for me it has been a big change.

Some loved it, some hated it - it's still there on the mechanical and wired EPS groups, which let's not forget, are all still in production and available.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

tallboyeu
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:47 am

by tallboyeu

graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:21 am
usr wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:15 am
graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:50 am
It may be possible to reprogtam the Mode button as a "thumb button" - it actually sits almost exactly where, ergonomically, the thumb button used to.
Something like that, perhaps with a silly cheap detachable plastic thingy to allow for at least a bit of downward push actuation should have been made part of the communication from day one. It would not matter if it was so bad in practice that literally everybody eventually converted to a "shi" configuration, that would still do the job of being respectful to those who literally bought into their claims of thumb lever superiority all those decades. And it would also prevent much of the negative halo effect SRW has on all groups with a lever arrangement that now suddenly is apparently not good enough for World Tour. That one will even affect Ekar to some amount'
I'd say that the thumb lever was never about being "better" - it was different & some found it more ergonomic than Shimano.
I prefer it - but then, as I said in my original piece, I've used the thumb lever since 1993 so for me it has been a big change.

Some loved it, some hated it - it's still there on the mechanical and wired EPS groups, which let's not forget, are all still in production and available.
really? The website of campagnolo is somehow indicating otherwise. As a customer I'll read that as either mechanical (Record, SR, Chorus) or Wireless. no wired EPS.

https://www.campagnolo.com/gb-en/road/g ... groupsets/

User avatar
Dov
Posts: 445
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:45 pm
Location: London

by Dov

This is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?

For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
Brooklyn Gangsta V4 with DXR
Cannondale CAAD 10 Track
Cielo Classic Sportif U8000
Cinelli Supercorsa DA9000
Colnago C64 R12
Concorde DA7800
DeRosa Nuovo Classico SR12
Eddy Mercks Corsa Extra Ch12
Felt F1 DA9050
Trek L500

Long time supporter of Rapha
Strava

B0tt0mline
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:47 pm

by B0tt0mline

Dov wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 am
This is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?

For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
No buttons for garmin control.
No powermeter option (as far as I know currently).
Moreover people did never ask for that short battery life.
No innovation at all.

I think Campa will either die (the generation willing to buy their products is getting old) or get bought (maybe by the same company as Colnago)...
Colnago C68- Enve SES 4.5
S-Works Aethos - Enve SES 2.3
Open MIN.D - Enve SES AR 4.5
Mosaic GT2-45 - Enve SES AR 3.4
Open WI.DE - no money for Enve

rollinslow
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am
Location: New York

by rollinslow

Dov wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 am
This is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?

For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
True....but feels good to complain anyway :D
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523

robeambro
Posts: 1829
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Dov wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 am
This is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?

For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
Would I call a 10-29 cassette "ginormous"? Not really - I would leave this descriptor for the rear derailleur though, and not in a complimentary way.

Bobbyc123
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:40 am

by Bobbyc123

graeme_f_k wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:46 pm
As probably one of the very few here to have actually ridden WL, I wonder if I should start a thread "Why Campagnolo Wireless is OK by me" ... :D
I've got 500km on it now, in it's pre-production (so very close to final) form, having ridden some earlier stuff as well.

I'm pretty relaxed about it, in terms of look and feel.
I am now officially blown away by rear shift speed. The prototypes were fast but now, its really fast.

There's a couple of things I think they could give a light tickle to, to improve them - but likely, if they were to take me up on those changes, they'd be in the nature of "running change" modifications ...
What would you say about the FD in that regard?
And how would you compare front and rear shift quality/speed to current SRAM and Shimano?

Is there any reason they didn't want to quanitfy any increases in shift speed from previous versions? (ie, SRW shifts 10% faster on the front & rear, etc)

usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:21 am
I'd say that the thumb lever was never about being "better" - it was different & some found it more ergonomic than Shimano.
I prefer it - but then, as I said in my original piece, I've used the thumb lever since 1993 so for me it has been a big change.

Some loved it, some hated it - it's still there on the mechanical and wired EPS groups, which let's not forget, are all still in production and available.
Well, I assume that the thumb lever was first of all about patents, but they did a very good job at selling it as something else. That success comes with the price of losing quite a bit of face when they abandon the layout.

I'd expect that if you've been riding EPS since v1 you must be quite well prepared to say goodbye to the thumbie, because from all I've hard that electronic button doesn't have quite the appeal of the unique "bam" of the ultrashift thumbie. But for those of us who take electronic not as eager early adopters but as a necessity that will soon become unavoidable unless you go all in on vintage or retro (due to frame/cockpit availability), the jump from thumb to something entirely different is quite jarring. As I said, it wouldn't have taken much to soften that blow, some slight nod of acknowledgement with a token compatibility layer for brains hardwired for thumb would have made all the differed, a "we haven't completely forgotten our loyal ultrashift buyers" that's sorely lacking. I get it (from previous posts that I think were yours), that Campagnolo does not want to be the traditionalist, they strive to be as progressive as they where 70 years ago, but they need to face the reality that many of their buyers require some friendly nudging to come along.

usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

B0tt0mline wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pm

No buttons for garmin control.
According to road.cc (and many others) the power/service button in the thumb region can be set up for Garmin control.

B0tt0mline
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:47 pm

by B0tt0mline

usr wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:08 pm
B0tt0mline wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pm

No buttons for garmin control.
According to road.cc (and many others) the power/service button in the thumb region can be set up for Garmin control.
that would be cool, altough shimano did it better (my opinion).
Colnago C68- Enve SES 4.5
S-Works Aethos - Enve SES 2.3
Open MIN.D - Enve SES AR 4.5
Mosaic GT2-45 - Enve SES AR 3.4
Open WI.DE - no money for Enve

rollinslow
Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am
Location: New York

by rollinslow

usr wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:08 pm
B0tt0mline wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pm

No buttons for garmin control.
According to road.cc (and many others) the power/service button in the thumb region can be set up for Garmin control.
It's insane that they didn't make the service button have a plastic 1 euro lever to clip-on over it to be thumb shifter. Unbelievable.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

graeme_f_k wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:46 pm
As probably one of the very few here to have actually ridden WL, I wonder if I should start a thread "Why Campagnolo Wireless is OK by me" ... :D
I've got 500km on it now, in it's pre-production (so very close to final) form, having ridden some earlier stuff as well.

I'm pretty relaxed about it, in terms of look and feel.
I am now officially blown away by rear shift speed. The prototypes were fast but now, its really fast.

There's a couple of things I think they could give a light tickle to, to improve them - but likely, if they were to take me up on those changes, they'd be in the nature of "running change" modifications ...
I'd be happy to see that thread and (hypothetically, of course - I've not ridden it) would suggest that the ratios and the size of the derailleurs - things much criticised here - are non-issues for me.

I'm assuming the chaps at Vicenza have listened to the Escape CC review on their podcast (it seemed more positive, constructive and balanced than the text one), but if not, maybe point them that way. I maintain (as do they) that losing the thumb-shifter is a mistake and, at the moment, it's probably a dealbreaker for many, though again that is personally academic as I'd be waiting for a Chorus-level version anyway.

Overall, on reflection I've tried to work out why this new launch actually made me a little sad, especially as it's a product I'd likely never be able to justify buying. I suppose it's because many of the things it suggests about Campag's future direction of travel are not what I would like, and it's probably the one brand I have anything resembling an emotional response to. I know they have to move forward; I just don't think this is the way. Oh well - everything changes and life moves on.

I think it'll have to be Di2 on the new bike and keep an eye out for a good condition Record or Chorus gruppo to stockpile. :-/

usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

raggedtrousers wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:56 pm
Overall, on reflection I've tried to work out why this new launch actually made me a little sad, especially as it's a product I'd likely never be able to justify buying. I suppose it's because many of the things it suggests about Campag's future direction of travel are not what I would like, and it's probably the one brand I have anything resembling an emotional response to. I know they have to move forward; I just don't think this is the way. Oh well - everything changes and life moves on.
Precisely my feelings. I even noticed a considerable decay in my enthusiasm of finding an unscratched spare crank for the silver Athena on my old bike (but if anyone really wants to get rid of a 175mm 50 34 PT, I'm here)

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply