Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

patchandscruff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:58 am

by patchandscruff

raggedtrousers wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:21 am
The one new product everyone was genuinely clamouring for - electronic Ekar - they refuse to make.
Where have they said they're refusing to make electronic Ekar? Got a source?

usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

solarider wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:41 am
I can only assume that is a mistake. Anybody seen them for that price elsewhere?
https://www.bike-discount.de/de/campagn ... ls-12-fach
Home of the Radon bikes, not affiliated with bike24.

The early adopter tax is high with this one. If they do eventually trickle down the technology then they can't possibly sustain that price for a battery, and they would lose credit if they significantly lowered the price later.
Shifting cables for 12s chorus beg to differ. My prediction is a "much cheaper" battery for chorus (with a slightly different texture) will be offered, at least if they don't completely give up on anything below SR which I stopped taking as a given, but still ridiculously expensive.

There are so many simple ways they could have made this generation a non-dud: someone (you?) already mentioned factory-OSPW, would have been a good distraction. An optional thumb shifter, nominally "for sprinters", actually for people who actually liked the Ergopower way. A battery attachment layout that would look nice without battery, and a simple dummy plug adapter to attach a wired/internal solution, call it "aero option" if you like. At least they toned down the "wings" on the crank a little, those carbon almost-rings that are the major design difference to record on the mechanical range (to my eyes the R crank is much prettier than the old SR one with the "wings", with that new SR it's a tie, even if I can totally see how absence of anything red must feel like a total letdown to people who made peace with the idea of paying extra for some red)

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raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

patchandscruff wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:40 am
raggedtrousers wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:21 am
The one new product everyone was genuinely clamouring for - electronic Ekar - they refuse to make.
Where have they said they're refusing to make electronic Ekar? Got a source?
I am fairly sure that in response to a question they were asked at the SR WL launch, they confirmed that it was not immediately in the pipeline. I would need to check, though. I'll edit the post if I find the quote.

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:56 pm
With a bit of time to reflect I think the majority of my dissapointment is a reflection of expecting something different from Campagnolo and not getting it. I wanted to have a reason be excited about buying Campagnolo and this isnt it.

Over time, I have migrated to Sram and then downmarket because there wasnt much to gain by spending more. As the peformance gap closed, the big difference was having one battery system / one electronics ecosystem across my bikes.

One thing I am happy for is that the 48/32 chainrings being the main combination will mean more power meter options for that specific size of chainring on the market and its a combo i really love with my AXS setups--and its one thing I really think Campagnolo got right vs. sram and shimano. Ive been running it primarily with a 10-30 on the road and a 10-33 or 10-36 on gravel and its awesome even though I think the 10-30 is actually a bit of a miss and I should either use the 10-28 or the 10-33 instead.
I've hestitated a while before coming to this party.

As most regulars here know, I'm the longest standing SC Principal within Campagnolo and have worked with Campagnolo product, on and off, for over 40 years - so, with that declaration of interest (for those that didn't know) up front, here's my take on what I have read so far:

Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.

I get that some people needed a reason to opt for WL. It's hard to know, though, unless what they were looking for was technically / commercially unattainable at this time, what that was / is. So, as with any new product, Campagnolo looked at the design trends, looked at what the frame merket, in particular was doing and made their choices. Remember, theyre doing this 5 to 6 years ahead - as are SH and SRAM.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's always 20/20.

A big complaint apperas to be price and especially in current circumstances, that is a valid concern. However, as others have said, a Seiko Kinetic and a Rolex Oyster Perpetual tell you the time just the same ... and I don't see Rolex rushing to offer a low cost version of the Oyster. No one "needs" a Rolex. No-one "needs" WL.

Price point is mostly a marketing decision, aside from some basic considerations around production cost. When EPS was launched in Athena, at factory gate it was a smidge (<5%) more expensive than Ultegra. Sales were still comfortably outsripped by RE/SR not in turnover but in units. A lower cost EPS12 might have done something in the market but I think that the product manager's love affair with Shimano makes that unlikely.

Using that experience as an indicator (there are lots of other things we can cite as examples), that, for me, means that premium is the way to go on the Campagnolo label.

The OE nut is going to take longer to crack and will require (IMO) a whole different manufacturing philosophy that will move production out of Europe and may even need a new brand. But I'm just a spanner-monkey, I'll leave that to the guys with brains the size of planets.

I suppose what I find really amazing, is that there are fewer than 500 groupsets out in the wild at the moment and yet there are so many instant experts in how it feels and performs. I've even seen supposedly "authoratative" comment on inter-compatibility with not just Campagnolo but other, third party product. Even real-world tested compatibility with other Campagnolo product is not yet completed at the factory - so the fact is - no-one *knows*. They are guessing.

In fact, almost no-one in the real world has ridden WL yet, outside of Campagnolo. Journos, on whose opinion, so much on forums is based, as we all know, have their own agendas and very few are actually very technically competent, either, so a percentage of them say things and make claims on both a commercial (as in "do they advertise with us?") and a flimsy, in most cases, technical, foundation.

When a product is as trailered as long as WL was and is beset with as much speculation about it's likely features (113 pages and counting on this forum alone, before launch ...), whatever Campagnolo did, was going to attract criticism. You really can't please all of the people all of the time. I'm a pretty well-known conservative in Campag world and I'd be the first to say that as I've watched the development of the WL group, I've had my "are you sure" moments ... but I've become used to the design ideas, I've had some minor input on some practical points and having allowed a bit of time to absorb some of the more unexpected things that WL has introduced, I'm pretty relaxed about them.

You have to look at what Campagnolo (or Shimano, or SRAM) are trying to acheive in the round.

For me, there's no real problem with a wired EPS system, any more than there was a problem with wired Di2. Yes, it's slower to build a bike and yes, where you have connecting cables running adjacent to brake cable outer or hydro hoses through restricted ports, it can be problematic - but a halfway competent builder can think & work their way around that.

But, if the market is making noisy demands for a wireless system, IMO, for it to be worthwhile, it has to be full wireless and that carries some penalties. One is derailleur size. A motor powerful enough to drive the cage where it needs to go against the tensions that can be generated by a rider has a certain size. A battery to power it has a certain size - the Campagnolo batteries have a slightly larger volume than SRAM but they also carry a built-in charge indicator. How that size is "distributed" in terms of the shape of the mechanism is always going to be a subjective question but the bulk can't be avoided. If aesthetically, it's seen as desirable that an "echo" of previous styling is included (as on the WL RD), then that also has an influence.

Campagnolo "could" have given you an extra battery to charge, made the RD smaller, and used a wireless equivalent to the Interface but the workload of the IF is, instead, split between the lever and the RD. That implies, for the RD, a greater space requirement, plus the protection of the hardware inside the RD from both vibration and impact. Even the SH 12s semi-wireless RD is bigger than it's 11s predecessor and they didn't have a battery interface to worry about.

I rue the absence of a rim brake option but we have to bend to the realities of the frame and wheel market as it is today. That reality is - disc brake. I don't like it, I think it's unneccessary and not aesthetically pleasing - but I'm not about to stop riding just because I can't ride a rim brake bike - which of course I can, because there are other options - other than professionally, I don't *have* to ride WL, if I don't want to.

It was always going to be a gamble changing to a two lever shift, both behind the brake lever. As a long-time Campagnolo user (since the 1980s), and having raced on every iteration of Campagnolo index shift lever, it has been a bit of a jorney for me to get used to the two finger shifting. I've ridden it for a little while now and find it no more troublesome to flip from my wired 12s EPS to WL and back again, than I do to ride Di2 or ETAP on the rare occasions that I have to do that.

Unlike practically every commentator on the two button design, I've actually ridden it in full winter gloves. It's not caused me a problem - other than that, as whenever it's cold enough to need winter gloves, I can't feel my fingers well anyway - but my fingers "know" where the buttons are. So will any user's once they're accustomed to the system.

The new lever configuration is a non-issue in terms of how it works, I recognise that some with smaller hands may find it takes some getting used to ... but the main criticism, after all the online BS about Caleb Ewan's thumb lever a couple of years ago - it's just not entirely what users were perhaps expecting.

Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? On WL, Campagnolo give you USB charging. Lots of the "why didn't they just" crew asked for that on EPS, not realising that the 12v EPS motors couldn't easily be run on a battery charged that way. in WL, you have a four-port charging hub with cables of sufficient length that all the batteries on the bike, which can be charged in situ, can be charged at once. 750km between charges max is no worse than a Garmin or a Wahoo BOLT & arguably a hell of a lot better than most Smartphones. Most electronic groupset owners suffer range anxiety anyway, apart from those that have someone to do their battery charging for them ... So even without my Campag SC hat on, I'd say this is a non-problem, sorry.

Shift quality - this is the one I really find perplexing.
At UCI on Tuesday, The students and I built a bike and we took it outside for them to ride. All praised the speed and accuracy of the shift. That activity attracted a bunch of other elite level riders to see what the bruhaha was - and all of them rode the bike - OK, not an exhaustive test and not a scientific sample but of the 15 or 16 people - ordinary riders, mind, not "bike testers" - did one complain about the shifting? No. There were 3 female road riders in there, all 3 jumped straight off ETAP bikes and onto WL and said the shifting was markedly faster. That's been my experience, too - so put me down as "confused of the UK" ...

Gear ratios. The 10T top model was one of the things that made me hesitate. I am a 53/39 kind of guy - if I could be, I'd still be a 53/42 kind of guy - not because I have a monster FTP - I don't - it's just that I am essentially very conservative and 53/42 and 54/44 for TTs, was what I grew up with and in the distant past when I was performing OK in competition, were the ratios I cut my teeth on. I adopted a 39T inner ring reluctantly and still don't find it intuitive, after all these years. I've never tried 50 / 34 other than on hire bikes but in those circumstances, I do know I didn't like it. However, for younger riders, unfettered by preconception, I can see that a 50 x 10T top gear is a tad bigger than even 53 x 11 and that if I really want to hamster-wheel my way up the Belle Filles des Planches, a tiny gravel-esque gear is the way to go. Personally I'd rather walk up the last bit. It's almost as fast and the scenery is stunning but then, I as a noted-in-my-club non-climber, have my reservations about taking races up climbs like that :-D

The gear ratio issue is just about what people are used to. The various commentary about smaller sprockets introducing more friction is actually a distraction - it is to some extent true and the smaller you make the smallest sprocket, in percentage terms, the bigger the problem gets - but a 9T sprocket made with modern materials, run with a chain made of modern materials and to modern design, lubricated with modern technology still comfortably outperforms anything that Freedy Maertens won the Worlds on, when people were incredulous that he'd use a 12T top ... yes, I really am that old! THe intermediate ratios are close to what can be acheived with "regular" cassettes and chainrings and I think that in 40 years time, when you are all riding magenetic bearing shaft drive bikes with ultra-low-friction CVT gears, those who grew up with 48-32 and 10-29 will be saying "don't like this infinitely variable gear much" ... I won't be around to see that, I shouldn't think - I'll be in Mechanic's Valhalla (with a bit of luck) looking down and wishing I could go out and play with "that" stuff ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the new Campy groupset. If something is going to be a problem for Campy it's that right now there's only SRW and Ekar in their groupset product range. They don't have an ecosystem, they don't have cheaper models to get new users. For now it might work when old Campy diehards will buy only Campy and the price doesn't matter. But what about new riders, they'll get bikes with SRAM or Shimano and they'll have multiple of those bikes. At that point selling them a Campy groupset that is more expensive and doesn't work with any of their existing parts or tools becomes much harder. They need cheaper versions. And they need electronic Ekar, even if I don't think that would really be needed from performance point of view. FD is really where electronic is much better. Mechanic Campy RD operation is just as good as any electronic one.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Well, if Campagnolo get so much bashing, people might soon even consider FSA. I would have if i wasn't so scared of FSAs service and spare parts.
I have not been able to find any dealer at all which even hint they work with WE.

Only thing i actually found i didn't like with Campagnolo, was the curvature they had on their shifters. It seems they have designed the new shifters differently
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
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Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

patchandscruff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:58 am

by patchandscruff

Lina wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:26 pm
If something is going to be a problem for Campy it's that right now there's only SRW and Ekar in their groupset product range.
They have mechanical Chorus rim/disk, mechanical Record rim/disc and mechanical SR rim/disc in their groupset product range. They're listed on the Campagnolo website and a quick skim on Google just now I can see various versions for sale via UK and German stores, so I suspect it's the same for the ROW.

RTW
in the industry
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm

by RTW

Lina wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:26 pm
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the new Campy groupset. If something is going to be a problem for Campy it's that right now there's only SRW and Ekar in their groupset product range. They don't have an ecosystem, they don't have cheaper models to get new users. For now it might work when old Campy diehards will buy only Campy and the price doesn't matter. But what about new riders, they'll get bikes with SRAM or Shimano and they'll have multiple of those bikes. At that point selling them a Campy groupset that is more expensive and doesn't work with any of their existing parts or tools becomes much harder. They need cheaper versions. And they need electronic Ekar, even if I don't think that would really be needed from performance point of view. FD is really where electronic is much better. Mechanic Campy RD operation is just as good as any electronic one.
I wonder how many of these people there actually are though? I have two Shimano bikes, a SRAM bike and perhaps a Campagnolo one soon. The 'same tools' and 'swapping parts' is an argument I hear a lot, but away from this forum I don't know many people who do this. The people I know buy a bike, or a frame and the parts and put them on that bike. Then they leave it like that. Until they sell it. Campagnolo needs some different tools, but in my experience so do every other Shimano generation. Bottom bracket tools where only the notches have changed, for example. Bleed kits for SRAM or a different one for Shimano.

Of my closest riding friends, one wouldn't touch SRAM, but has a number of Shimano bikes and a Campagnolo bike. One is Campagnolo only (but bought Ultegra for his wife), and the other has the odd Campagnolo bike in his collection.

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

patchandscruff wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:53 pm
Lina wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:26 pm
If something is going to be a problem for Campy it's that right now there's only SRW and Ekar in their groupset product range.
They have mechanical Chorus rim/disk, mechanical Record rim/disc and mechanical SR rim/disc in their groupset product range. They're listed on the Campagnolo website and a quick skim on Google just now I can see various versions for sale via UK and German stores, so I suspect it's the same for the ROW.
Yes technically they have them. But they're older generation and they won't sell to anyone outside of deep discounts. And good luck selling high end mechanical groupsets to anyone in 2023.

mriddle
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:18 am

by mriddle

Thank you graeme_f_k!
As always, your knowledge and experience is most appreciated sir.

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 am
apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:56 pm
With a bit of time to reflect I think the majority of my dissapointment is a reflection of expecting something different from Campagnolo and not getting it. I wanted to have a reason be excited about buying Campagnolo and this isnt it.

Over time, I have migrated to Sram and then downmarket because there wasnt much to gain by spending more. As the peformance gap closed, the big difference was having one battery system / one electronics ecosystem across my bikes.

One thing I am happy for is that the 48/32 chainrings being the main combination will mean more power meter options for that specific size of chainring on the market and its a combo i really love with my AXS setups--and its one thing I really think Campagnolo got right vs. sram and shimano. Ive been running it primarily with a 10-30 on the road and a 10-33 or 10-36 on gravel and its awesome even though I think the 10-30 is actually a bit of a miss and I should either use the 10-28 or the 10-33 instead.
I've hestitated a while before coming to this party.

As most regulars here know, I'm the longest standing SC Principal within Campagnolo and have worked with Campagnolo product, on and off, for over 40 years - so, with that declaration of interest (for those that didn't know) up front, here's my take on what I have read so far:

Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.

I get that some people needed a reason to opt for WL. It's hard to know, though, unless what they were looking for was technically / commercially unattainable at this time, what that was / is. So, as with any new product, Campagnolo looked at the design trends, looked at what the frame merket, in particular was doing and made their choices. Remember, theyre doing this 5 to 6 years ahead - as are SH and SRAM.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's always 20/20.

A big complaint apperas to be price and especially in current circumstances, that is a valid concern. However, as others have said, a Seiko Kinetic and a Rolex Oyster Perpetual tell you the time just the same ... and I don't see Rolex rushing to offer a low cost version of the Oyster. No one "needs" a Rolex. No-one "needs" WL.

Price point is mostly a marketing decision, aside from some basic considerations around production cost. When EPS was launched in Athena, at factory gate it was a smidge (<5%) more expensive than Ultegra. Sales were still comfortably outsripped by RE/SR not in turnover but in units. A lower cost EPS12 might have done something in the market but I think that the product manager's love affair with Shimano makes that unlikely.

Using that experience as an indicator (there are lots of other things we can cite as examples), that, for me, means that premium is the way to go on the Campagnolo label.

The OE nut is going to take longer to crack and will require (IMO) a whole different manufacturing philosophy that will move production out of Europe and may even need a new brand. But I'm just a spanner-monkey, I'll leave that to the guys with brains the size of planets.

I suppose what I find really amazing, is that there are fewer than 500 groupsets out in the wild at the moment and yet there are so many instant experts in how it feels and performs. I've even seen supposedly "authoratative" comment on inter-compatibility with not just Campagnolo but other, third party product. Even real-world tested compatibility with other Campagnolo product is not yet completed at the factory - so the fact is - no-one *knows*. They are guessing.

In fact, almost no-one in the real world has ridden WL yet, outside of Campagnolo. Journos, on whose opinion, so much on forums is based, as we all know, have their own agendas and very few are actually very technically competent, either, so a percentage of them say things and make claims on both a commercial (as in "do they advertise with us?") and a flimsy, in most cases, technical, foundation.

When a product is as trailered as long as WL was and is beset with as much speculation about it's likely features (113 pages and counting on this forum alone, before launch ...), whatever Campagnolo did, was going to attract criticism. You really can't please all of the people all of the time. I'm a pretty well-known conservative in Campag world and I'd be the first to say that as I've watched the development of the WL group, I've had my "are you sure" moments ... but I've become used to the design ideas, I've had some minor input on some practical points and having allowed a bit of time to absorb some of the more unexpected things that WL has introduced, I'm pretty relaxed about them.

You have to look at what Campagnolo (or Shimano, or SRAM) are trying to acheive in the round.

For me, there's no real problem with a wired EPS system, any more than there was a problem with wired Di2. Yes, it's slower to build a bike and yes, where you have connecting cables running adjacent to brake cable outer or hydro hoses through restricted ports, it can be problematic - but a halfway competent builder can think & work their way around that.

But, if the market is making noisy demands for a wireless system, IMO, for it to be worthwhile, it has to be full wireless and that carries some penalties. One is derailleur size. A motor powerful enough to drive the cage where it needs to go against the tensions that can be generated by a rider has a certain size. A battery to power it has a certain size - the Campagnolo batteries have a slightly larger volume than SRAM but they also carry a built-in charge indicator. How that size is "distributed" in terms of the shape of the mechanism is always going to be a subjective question but the bulk can't be avoided. If aesthetically, it's seen as desirable that an "echo" of previous styling is included (as on the WL RD), then that also has an influence.

Campagnolo "could" have given you an extra battery to charge, made the RD smaller, and used a wireless equivalent to the Interface but the workload of the IF is, instead, split between the lever and the RD. That implies, for the RD, a greater space requirement, plus the protection of the hardware inside the RD from both vibration and impact. Even the SH 12s semi-wireless RD is bigger than it's 11s predecessor and they didn't have a battery interface to worry about.

I rue the absence of a rim brake option but we have to bend to the realities of the frame and wheel market as it is today. That reality is - disc brake. I don't like it, I think it's unneccessary and not aesthetically pleasing - but I'm not about to stop riding just because I can't ride a rim brake bike - which of course I can, because there are other options - other than professionally, I don't *have* to ride WL, if I don't want to.

It was always going to be a gamble changing to a two lever shift, both behind the brake lever. As a long-time Campagnolo user (since the 1980s), and having raced on every iteration of Campagnolo index shift lever, it has been a bit of a jorney for me to get used to the two finger shifting. I've ridden it for a little while now and find it no more troublesome to flip from my wired 12s EPS to WL and back again, than I do to ride Di2 or ETAP on the rare occasions that I have to do that.

Unlike practically every commentator on the two button design, I've actually ridden it in full winter gloves. It's not caused me a problem - other than that, as whenever it's cold enough to need winter gloves, I can't feel my fingers well anyway - but my fingers "know" where the buttons are. So will any user's once they're accustomed to the system.

The new lever configuration is a non-issue in terms of how it works, I recognise that some with smaller hands may find it takes some getting used to ... but the main criticism, after all the online BS about Caleb Ewan's thumb lever a couple of years ago - it's just not entirely what users were perhaps expecting.

Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? On WL, Campagnolo give you USB charging. Lots of the "why didn't they just" crew asked for that on EPS, not realising that the 12v EPS motors couldn't easily be run on a battery charged that way. in WL, you have a four-port charging hub with cables of sufficient length that all the batteries on the bike, which can be charged in situ, can be charged at once. 750km between charges max is no worse than a Garmin or a Wahoo BOLT & arguably a hell of a lot better than most Smartphones. Most electronic groupset owners suffer range anxiety anyway, apart from those that have someone to do their battery charging for them ... So even without my Campag SC hat on, I'd say this is a non-problem, sorry.

Shift quality - this is the one I really find perplexing.
At UCI on Tuesday, The students and I built a bike and we took it outside for them to ride. All praised the speed and accuracy of the shift. That activity attracted a bunch of other elite level riders to see what the bruhaha was - and all of them rode the bike - OK, not an exhaustive test and not a scientific sample but of the 15 or 16 people - ordinary riders, mind, not "bike testers" - did one complain about the shifting? No. There were 3 female road riders in there, all 3 jumped straight off ETAP bikes and onto WL and said the shifting was markedly faster. That's been my experience, too - so put me down as "confused of the UK" ...

Gear ratios. The 10T top model was one of the things that made me hesitate. I am a 53/39 kind of guy - if I could be, I'd still be a 53/42 kind of guy - not because I have a monster FTP - I don't - it's just that I am essentially very conservative and 53/42 and 54/44 for TTs, was what I grew up with and in the distant past when I was performing OK in competition, were the ratios I cut my teeth on. I adopted a 39T inner ring reluctantly and still don't find it intuitive, after all these years. I've never tried 50 / 34 other than on hire bikes but in those circumstances, I do know I didn't like it. However, for younger riders, unfettered by preconception, I can see that a 50 x 10T top gear is a tad bigger than even 53 x 11 and that if I really want to hamster-wheel my way up the Belle Filles des Planches, a tiny gravel-esque gear is the way to go. Personally I'd rather walk up the last bit. It's almost as fast and the scenery is stunning but then, I as a noted-in-my-club non-climber, have my reservations about taking races up climbs like that :-D

The gear ratio issue is just about what people are used to. The various commentary about smaller sprockets introducing more friction is actually a distraction - it is to some extent true and the smaller you make the smallest sprocket, in percentage terms, the bigger the problem gets - but a 9T sprocket made with modern materials, run with a chain made of modern materials and to modern design, lubricated with modern technology still comfortably outperforms anything that Freedy Maertens won the Worlds on, when people were incredulous that he'd use a 12T top ... yes, I really am that old! THe intermediate ratios are close to what can be acheived with "regular" cassettes and chainrings and I think that in 40 years time, when you are all riding magenetic bearing shaft drive bikes with ultra-low-friction CVT gears, those who grew up with 48-32 and 10-29 will be saying "don't like this infinitely variable gear much" ... I won't be around to see that, I shouldn't think - I'll be in Mechanic's Valhalla (with a bit of luck) looking down and wishing I could go out and play with "that" stuff ...
Well, from my perspective, full marks to Graeme for coming on and offering the 'semi-official' viewpoint.

FWIW, I don't have an issue with the gearing range, or the fact it is disc only, or the battery life. I will also accept I've not ridden it (though at 4.5k I'm not likely to, either). Of all the reviewers' comments I've read, Ronan McLaughlin's are those I'd be most inclined to take at face value, though of course opinions differ, and of course groupsets do ride a little differently after a 1000km or so; I thought the new Di2 had a slightly 'abrupt' feel when I first demoed a brand new, straight out of the box, groupset.

However, I still think Athena EPS is a dubious comparison; the market has moved on a lot since then (though once bitten, twice shy I suppose).

Most pertinently, I think, are the voices of those questioning what the 'big picture' is at Campagnolo, and saying that they need to do more to attract those who are currently 'serious' riders between 21-35; the kind of riders who, a generation or 2 ago, would have aspired to own a Record groupset when finances allowed.

Anyhow, I'm personally grateful that GFK has chipped in.

diecast
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:09 pm

by diecast

graeme_f_k wrote:
apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:56 pm
With a bit of time to reflect I think the majority of my dissapointment is a reflection of expecting something different from Campagnolo and not getting it. I wanted to have a reason be excited about buying Campagnolo and this isnt it.

Over time, I have migrated to Sram and then downmarket because there wasnt much to gain by spending more. As the peformance gap closed, the big difference was having one battery system / one electronics ecosystem across my bikes.

One thing I am happy for is that the 48/32 chainrings being the main combination will mean more power meter options for that specific size of chainring on the market and its a combo i really love with my AXS setups--and its one thing I really think Campagnolo got right vs. sram and shimano. Ive been running it primarily with a 10-30 on the road and a 10-33 or 10-36 on gravel and its awesome even though I think the 10-30 is actually a bit of a miss and I should either use the 10-28 or the 10-33 instead.
I've hestitated a while before coming to this party.

As most regulars here know, I'm the longest standing SC Principal within Campagnolo and have worked with Campagnolo product, on and off, for over 40 years - so, with that declaration of interest (for those that didn't know) up front, here's my take on what I have read so far:

Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.

I get that some people needed a reason to opt for WL. It's hard to know, though, unless what they were looking for was technically / commercially unattainable at this time, what that was / is. So, as with any new product, Campagnolo looked at the design trends, looked at what the frame merket, in particular was doing and made their choices. Remember, theyre doing this 5 to 6 years ahead - as are SH and SRAM.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's always 20/20.

A big complaint apperas to be price and especially in current circumstances, that is a valid concern. However, as others have said, a Seiko Kinetic and a Rolex Oyster Perpetual tell you the time just the same ... and I don't see Rolex rushing to offer a low cost version of the Oyster. No one "needs" a Rolex. No-one "needs" WL.

Price point is mostly a marketing decision, aside from some basic considerations around production cost. When EPS was launched in Athena, at factory gate it was a smidge (<5%) more expensive than Ultegra. Sales were still comfortably outsripped by RE/SR not in turnover but in units. A lower cost EPS12 might have done something in the market but I think that the product manager's love affair with Shimano makes that unlikely.

Using that experience as an indicator (there are lots of other things we can cite as examples), that, for me, means that premium is the way to go on the Campagnolo label.

The OE nut is going to take longer to crack and will require (IMO) a whole different manufacturing philosophy that will move production out of Europe and may even need a new brand. But I'm just a spanner-monkey, I'll leave that to the guys with brains the size of planets.

I suppose what I find really amazing, is that there are fewer than 500 groupsets out in the wild at the moment and yet there are so many instant experts in how it feels and performs. I've even seen supposedly "authoratative" comment on inter-compatibility with not just Campagnolo but other, third party product. Even real-world tested compatibility with other Campagnolo product is not yet completed at the factory - so the fact is - no-one *knows*. They are guessing.

In fact, almost no-one in the real world has ridden WL yet, outside of Campagnolo. Journos, on whose opinion, so much on forums is based, as we all know, have their own agendas and very few are actually very technically competent, either, so a percentage of them say things and make claims on both a commercial (as in "do they advertise with us?") and a flimsy, in most cases, technical, foundation.

When a product is as trailered as long as WL was and is beset with as much speculation about it's likely features (113 pages and counting on this forum alone, before launch ...), whatever Campagnolo did, was going to attract criticism. You really can't please all of the people all of the time. I'm a pretty well-known conservative in Campag world and I'd be the first to say that as I've watched the development of the WL group, I've had my "are you sure" moments ... but I've become used to the design ideas, I've had some minor input on some practical points and having allowed a bit of time to absorb some of the more unexpected things that WL has introduced, I'm pretty relaxed about them.

You have to look at what Campagnolo (or Shimano, or SRAM) are trying to acheive in the round.

For me, there's no real problem with a wired EPS system, any more than there was a problem with wired Di2. Yes, it's slower to build a bike and yes, where you have connecting cables running adjacent to brake cable outer or hydro hoses through restricted ports, it can be problematic - but a halfway competent builder can think & work their way around that.

But, if the market is making noisy demands for a wireless system, IMO, for it to be worthwhile, it has to be full wireless and that carries some penalties. One is derailleur size. A motor powerful enough to drive the cage where it needs to go against the tensions that can be generated by a rider has a certain size. A battery to power it has a certain size - the Campagnolo batteries have a slightly larger volume than SRAM but they also carry a built-in charge indicator. How that size is "distributed" in terms of the shape of the mechanism is always going to be a subjective question but the bulk can't be avoided. If aesthetically, it's seen as desirable that an "echo" of previous styling is included (as on the WL RD), then that also has an influence.

Campagnolo "could" have given you an extra battery to charge, made the RD smaller, and used a wireless equivalent to the Interface but the workload of the IF is, instead, split between the lever and the RD. That implies, for the RD, a greater space requirement, plus the protection of the hardware inside the RD from both vibration and impact. Even the SH 12s semi-wireless RD is bigger than it's 11s predecessor and they didn't have a battery interface to worry about.

I rue the absence of a rim brake option but we have to bend to the realities of the frame and wheel market as it is today. That reality is - disc brake. I don't like it, I think it's unneccessary and not aesthetically pleasing - but I'm not about to stop riding just because I can't ride a rim brake bike - which of course I can, because there are other options - other than professionally, I don't *have* to ride WL, if I don't want to.

It was always going to be a gamble changing to a two lever shift, both behind the brake lever. As a long-time Campagnolo user (since the 1980s), and having raced on every iteration of Campagnolo index shift lever, it has been a bit of a jorney for me to get used to the two finger shifting. I've ridden it for a little while now and find it no more troublesome to flip from my wired 12s EPS to WL and back again, than I do to ride Di2 or ETAP on the rare occasions that I have to do that.

Unlike practically every commentator on the two button design, I've actually ridden it in full winter gloves. It's not caused me a problem - other than that, as whenever it's cold enough to need winter gloves, I can't feel my fingers well anyway - but my fingers "know" where the buttons are. So will any user's once they're accustomed to the system.

The new lever configuration is a non-issue in terms of how it works, I recognise that some with smaller hands may find it takes some getting used to ... but the main criticism, after all the online BS about Caleb Ewan's thumb lever a couple of years ago - it's just not entirely what users were perhaps expecting.

Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? On WL, Campagnolo give you USB charging. Lots of the "why didn't they just" crew asked for that on EPS, not realising that the 12v EPS motors couldn't easily be run on a battery charged that way. in WL, you have a four-port charging hub with cables of sufficient length that all the batteries on the bike, which can be charged in situ, can be charged at once. 750km between charges max is no worse than a Garmin or a Wahoo BOLT & arguably a hell of a lot better than most Smartphones. Most electronic groupset owners suffer range anxiety anyway, apart from those that have someone to do their battery charging for them ... So even without my Campag SC hat on, I'd say this is a non-problem, sorry.

Shift quality - this is the one I really find perplexing.
At UCI on Tuesday, The students and I built a bike and we took it outside for them to ride. All praised the speed and accuracy of the shift. That activity attracted a bunch of other elite level riders to see what the bruhaha was - and all of them rode the bike - OK, not an exhaustive test and not a scientific sample but of the 15 or 16 people - ordinary riders, mind, not "bike testers" - did one complain about the shifting? No. There were 3 female road riders in there, all 3 jumped straight off ETAP bikes and onto WL and said the shifting was markedly faster. That's been my experience, too - so put me down as "confused of the UK" ...

Gear ratios. The 10T top model was one of the things that made me hesitate. I am a 53/39 kind of guy - if I could be, I'd still be a 53/42 kind of guy - not because I have a monster FTP - I don't - it's just that I am essentially very conservative and 53/42 and 54/44 for TTs, was what I grew up with and in the distant past when I was performing OK in competition, were the ratios I cut my teeth on. I adopted a 39T inner ring reluctantly and still don't find it intuitive, after all these years. I've never tried 50 / 34 other than on hire bikes but in those circumstances, I do know I didn't like it. However, for younger riders, unfettered by preconception, I can see that a 50 x 10T top gear is a tad bigger than even 53 x 11 and that if I really want to hamster-wheel my way up the Belle Filles des Planches, a tiny gravel-esque gear is the way to go. Personally I'd rather walk up the last bit. It's almost as fast and the scenery is stunning but then, I as a noted-in-my-club non-climber, have my reservations about taking races up climbs like that :-D

The gear ratio issue is just about what people are used to. The various commentary about smaller sprockets introducing more friction is actually a distraction - it is to some extent true and the smaller you make the smallest sprocket, in percentage terms, the bigger the problem gets - but a 9T sprocket made with modern materials, run with a chain made of modern materials and to modern design, lubricated with modern technology still comfortably outperforms anything that Freedy Maertens won the Worlds on, when people were incredulous that he'd use a 12T top ... yes, I really am that old! THe intermediate ratios are close to what can be acheived with "regular" cassettes and chainrings and I think that in 40 years time, when you are all riding magenetic bearing shaft drive bikes with ultra-low-friction CVT gears, those who grew up with 48-32 and 10-29 will be saying "don't like this infinitely variable gear much" ... I won't be around to see that, I shouldn't think - I'll be in Mechanic's Valhalla (with a bit of luck) looking down and wishing I could go out and play with "that" stuff ...
Thanks for your constructive and sensible comments Graeme.

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Sjoerd
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:22 pm
Location: Les Pays Bas

by Sjoerd

Yeah I second that wholeheartedly, thanks for the response.

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ultimobici
in the industry
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by ultimobici

Lina wrote:I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the new Campy groupset. If something is going to be a problem for Campy it's that right now there's only SRW and Ekar in their groupset product range. They don't have an ecosystem, they don't have cheaper models to get new users. For now it might work when old Campy diehards will buy only Campy and the price doesn't matter. But what about new riders, they'll get bikes with SRAM or Shimano and they'll have multiple of those bikes. At that point selling them a Campy groupset that is more expensive and doesn't work with any of their existing parts or tools becomes much harder. They need cheaper versions. And they need electronic Ekar, even if I don't think that would really be needed from performance point of view. FD is really where electronic is much better. Mechanic Campy RD operation is just as good as any electronic one.
What makes you think Campag have abandoned mechanical? They have discontinued Centaur but Chorus, Record & Super Record are still current.


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patchandscruff
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:58 am

by patchandscruff

Graeme delivers the mic drop.

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