Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Moderator: robbosmans

Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Xabi wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:43 pm
Personally I see more negatives than positives on a wireless groupset. I personally don't see the point if it's not on a full suspension MTB frame... For road frames it would be a plus if hydraulic hoses were wireless too.

10 minutes charge with a cheapo Chinese external battery that you can use any to charge any usb gadget gives you longer ride time than any removable battery on wireless groupsets.

New campagnolo derraileurs look bulky and ugly, definitely don't look like the money they cost. On the other hand I like the looks of the levers and brake calipers, ergonomically I can't say anything because I haven't touched them, yet.
I don’t need 10 minutes to charge with a removable battery. I keep two spares in my toolbox on race days. Swapping batteries takes seconds. For extreme circumstances, you can even stick a spare battery in your tool roll / saddle pack.

This is perhaps the one major issue with differently shaped batteries. I’d have the option of only carrying one emergency spare eTap battery, but with SR WL I would need to carry two.

Bondurant
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:28 pm

by Bondurant

I would also like to chip in and thank Graeme for his always-thoughtful posts.

It's petty but I do find it risible that Rolex watches are the 'luxury' comparison on this thread. They are a mass-produced watch with great marketing. If anyone wants to draw a luxury, hand-built comparison when pigeonholing Campag, Rolex are probably not the best choice. If Campag sold the volumes Rolex does they would be doing rather well.

by Weenie


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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

HiFi wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:47 pm
  • Laptops and phones no longer have removable batteries; if you can't swap them then don't bother making them removable.

Of course you can swap them with freshly charged batteries. This will likely end up being the preferred way of doing things for high mileage riders.

r_mutt
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:33 pm

by r_mutt

graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 am


Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.


Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? On WL, Campagnolo give you USB charging. Lots of the "why didn't they just" crew asked for that on EPS, not realising that the 12v EPS motors couldn't easily be run on a battery charged that way. in WL, you have a four-port charging hub with cables of sufficient length that all the batteries on the bike, which can be charged in situ, can be charged at once. 750km between charges max is no worse than a Garmin or a Wahoo BOLT & arguably a hell of a lot better than most Smartphones. Most electronic groupset owners suffer range anxiety anyway, apart from those that have someone to do their battery charging for them ... So even without my Campag SC hat on, I'd say this is a non-problem, sorry.
I wrote on another forum yesterday wondering how it was possible for such strong critisism by so many who have yet to ride or even see the group in person. I am as perplexed as you are.

As far as the battery charging on EPS V1-3, I will respectfully disagree. I was one of the many who broke pins on the charger after ham-fisting it into the port. I had to go to a shop and buy a new one to ride. Even knowing what I know now about the EPS charger's idiosyncrasies, I am always nervous when plugging in for a charge.

r_mutt
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:33 pm

by r_mutt

Bondurant wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:30 pm
I would also like to chip in and thank Graeme for his always-thoughtful posts.

It's petty but I do find it risible that Rolex watches are the 'luxury' comparison on this thread. They are a mass-produced watch with great marketing. If anyone wants to draw a luxury, hand-built comparison when pigeonholing Campag, Rolex are probably not the best choice. If Campag sold the volumes Rolex does they would be doing rather well.
I'm not a watch person, but what watch brand(s) would be a better comparison for this, in your opinion?

Bondurant
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:28 pm

by Bondurant

There are many small volume high quality hand built watch manufacturers, there's not one better comparison than another. It is a much more diverse market than groupset manufacturers. Outside of the more well-known brands like PP and VC, there is also Moser, FP Journe, Lange, Richard Mille and many more. Even Seiko have a very highly priced sub brand called Credor. Could be any. Mille is probably the good equivalent to SR WL in that only a few can afford them (and I am most certainly not one of them).

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The watch guys I know collect Rolex as well as VC, PP, AP, JLC, etc. For different reasons, but Rolex has a better reputation in watch circles than it does with non-watch people.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rudye9mr
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 12:01 pm

by rudye9mr

FSA WE seem to have already reached their second iteration of wireless...they may be a strong competitor in the wireless space already being the lightest.

CyclingGiraffe
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:04 pm

by CyclingGiraffe

Bondurant wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:50 pm
There are many small volume high quality hand built watch manufacturers, there's not one better comparison than another. It is a much more diverse market than groupset manufacturers. Outside of the more well-known brands like PP and VC, there is also Moser, FP Journe, Lange, Richard Mille and many more. Even Seiko have a very highly priced sub brand called Credor. Could be any. Mille is probably the good equivalent to SR WL in that only a few can afford them (and I am most certainly not one of them).
This is interesting; I wonder if Campagnolo, particularly with SR, will continue to exist as, effectively, a veblen good. The comparisons to luxury watches like Richard Mille (which undoubtedly are veblen goods) indicates that is where they are headed. Likewise, getting rid of the lower-end groups could be seen as an attempt to further cement Campy's status symbol ranks. The market will tell if this attempt is a success or not. It will be interesting to see whether or not there is enough of a market at this level for Campagnolo to continue as an independent going concern.

(Personally, I would view Campagnolo more like Rolex than Richard Mille, as it is a brand with a long history of making very high quality goods for a specific purpose, which in more recent years has become more "jewelry" than workhorse. Richard Mille strikes me as a brand developed more recently to be jewerly first, leveraging celebrity endorsements and price exclusivity to drive demand.)

apr46
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

r_mutt wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:33 pm

I wrote on another forum yesterday wondering how it was possible for such strong critisism by so many who have yet to ride or even see the group in person. I am as perplexed as you are.
For me personally it was one of profound dissapointment. I still think the battery situation is a compromise between Sram and and the old EPS approach--and not a good one; but the bigger story here to me is that we are used to Campagnolo delivering products that push the envelope in ways that the others didnt. Sometimes, in ways that weren't expected. Ekar was that. 12spd SR / Record was that. SR 11 EPS with its clicky buttons and hall effect chain sensor (I think, first with a phone app too!) was that. SR WL isnt that. I don't need to ride it to feel that way, but i still look forward to trying it in the case there is something I am missing.

This launch reminded me of Lincoln relaunching the Continental nameplate to compete against the Mercedes S class sedan when that segment was being eaten by the not very luxurious Tesla Model S. It doesnt matter if the group shifts as good or better than Sram or Shimano just like water buffalo leather and Matthew McConaughey wasn't going to help Lincoln.
graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 am
Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.

I get that some people needed a reason to opt for WL. It's hard to know, though, unless what they were looking for was technically / commercially unattainable at this time, what that was / is. So, as with any new product, Campagnolo looked at the design trends, looked at what the frame merket, in particular was doing and made their choices. Remember, theyre doing this 5 to 6 years ahead - as are SH and SRAM.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's always 20/20.
I appreciate the response and the length to which it adressed points of criticism, but if its true that the market is moving faster, and as a result nailing the trends in that 5-6 year out time horizon is getting harder, i really hope Campagnolo is thinking about how to move faster, rather than hoping to make an even harder shot the next time down the floor.
Last edited by apr46 on Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RTW
in the industry
Posts: 3756
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm

by RTW

We aren't talking watches. Or cars. We are talking bicycle components. Specifically gear components.

Campagnolo have brought to the world their latest and greatest offering. So far the world does not appear to be excited. That same world was excited about DA Di2 (all iterations) and Red.

Bondurant
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:28 pm

by Bondurant

TobinHatesYou wrote:The watch guys I know collect Rolex as well as VC, PP, AP, JLC, etc. For different reasons, but Rolex has a better reputation in watch circles than it does with non-watch people.
I doubt that, not least because Rolex is one of the only cut-through aspirational watch brands for the non-watch Insta people.

On the other hand, if these guys managed to buy a steel Rolex at RRP I can understand their happiness.

Sorry for the thread derailment.

Edit: not that it's a great thread.



Sock3t
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:20 am

by Sock3t

The further we stray from mechanical shifting, the further we stray from affordable groupsets.

jih
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm

by jih

Sock3t wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:44 pm
The further we stray from mechanical shifting, the further we stray from affordable groupsets.
Not necessarily. Once the R&D costs are paid there's no reason why electronic equipment can't be cheaper than intricate mechanisms.

The watch analogy is overblown, but early digital watches were very expensive. Now they're much cheaper than the mechanical counterparts.

BenCousins
Posts: 1367
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:46 am

by BenCousins

CyclingGiraffe wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:10 pm
Bondurant wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:50 pm
There are many small volume high quality hand built watch manufacturers, there's not one better comparison than another. It is a much more diverse market than groupset manufacturers. Outside of the more well-known brands like PP and VC, there is also Moser, FP Journe, Lange, Richard Mille and many more. Even Seiko have a very highly priced sub brand called Credor. Could be any. Mille is probably the good equivalent to SR WL in that only a few can afford them (and I am most certainly not one of them).
This is interesting; I wonder if Campagnolo, particularly with SR, will continue to exist as, effectively, a veblen good.
High-end oad bikes are already a veblen good. It's fancy show-off toys for rich old guys. Go on the average group ride - do those guys need the performance of the bike they are riding? Of course not. We all know the young guys who turn up with a cheap bike and win races.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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