Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

0x47af7d8f4dd51267
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:24 pm

by 0x47af7d8f4dd51267

zappafile123 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:18 am
I love Campy, I only have campy on my four bikes, and I am *very* disappointed with this release. But more than that, I think some of the choices made by Campagnolo here could threaten their future. Who is going to buy this groupset? Here's a neatly organised list as to why this is the biggest groupset release flop in recent history.

1. Outrageously large derailleurs
The long-term feather in Campy's hat, which has been removed and put on the table is aesthetics. If you pull up a photo of 2nd gen Shimano Di2, the hideous Ultegra 6770, you'll see that the Campy derailleurs are LARGER. How!? Disgusting. Fat. Ugly. No. The derailleurs should be 40% smaller, look at Shimano, its 2023.

1b. logo aesthetics - thumbs down
I dunno, bland, not exciting, doesn’t pop, too subdued. Where is the campy flair?

2a. Stupid shifter button design
Vertical shift button layout? Did anyone think about how the physical structure of hands? Do you have two fingers that naturally extend down to hover unencumbered over vertically arranged each button? NO! Users will have to scrunch their hands, flex their wrists, to adjust the tip or tips of their fingers to hit each button. Dumb. Also two reviewers complained about a sharp edged of the shifter blade cutting into their hand. WTF.

2b. No thumb shifter
Some people don’t like the thumb shifter, that’s cool, no worries, they don’t buy campy. The thumb shifter is great. Yes, it’s not the best for reaching from the drops, but Campy could have just made it easier. The thumb shifter is (by and large) uniquely campy and very ergonomic from the hoods where is where people ride 95% of the time.

3. 750-1000km range?
Right... so some people are going to make sure they charge their batteries once every week and a half? That sounds like a massive pain in the ass. Why go for a gimmick over practical everyday use. This is, in effect, a dig at going wireless. The FSA WE and 9200 approach seems like a practical compromise. Why not do that? Its not at all hard to thread cables through two tubes. The benefit of an internal battery seems to obviously outweigh the benefit of an easier install.

4. SRAM gear ratios
One of the people reviewing the groupset did say that maintaining the perfect cadence was easier than old-school mid compact etc. Cool. Over the last few years, I feel as though I've seen by and large negative media on SRAMs ratios e.g., higher friction, pros demanding bigger rings, hubbards saying the small rings look dorky. Why did Campy go down a path where pretty much everyone said 'na, this is dumb'?

5. No update to the brakes/crankset?
It’s more of a niggling point, but why doesn’t the crankset look new and exciting? Why hasn’t there been an update to the brakes? I get that they were already good, but they have had 5 years to work out how to do something new.

6. No rim brake option
This could be beating a dead horse, and I don’t know sales figures, but I would have thought there was a profitable market niche by remaining the last hold out for high end rim brake group sets.

7. Apparently, the shifting sucks?
A remarkably frank review from Sam Gupta seems to suggest that the apparent steaming pile of garbage outlined above is in fact a steaming pile of garbage. You'd think that with the price, the 5-year gap between group sets that Campy could have at least nailed the shifting?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/ ... s-groupset

9. Price
Pricing needs to be competitive. This whole thing 'we're a luxury brand, we need to be expensive for its own sake' is BS. Currently the pricing looks to be nearly double the cost of Dura Ace. Thats just getting ridiculous, especially when you consider your paying nearly double for an obviously inferior product. You'd have to be blind or dumb to buy this groupset over 9200.

Conclusion
So... Campy went and copied SRAM? Why? SRAM suck. What were Campy thinking with this release? I don’t know. Someone is smoking too much weed in Italy. I cant think of any positives from this release. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I strongly disagree with your assessment on most points.

1a. Yes, the SRW derailleur is larger than SR EPS, but it contains more electronics and a battery. I believe that form should follow function, and if you're buying a wireless groupset, you need these functions in your derailleur. And for a wireless derailleur, I think it looks great. If you don't like the more bulky looks, buy something more simple.

1b. Logo aesthetics - This is not important, but I like the minimal design. The anthracite body and the silver/white letters will blend in nicely with any frameset.

2a. Shift button design - The vertical layout makes more sense to me than the horizontal layout. Different fingers will rest on the buttons and there's plenty open space around it to make sure you have the right one. I never used Di2, but on the first sight Campagnolo's layout makes more sense to me.

2b. No thumb shifter - Although I am a big fan of the classic thumb button, I believe the new design could work just as well. The buttons are reachable from any position and it is less divisive. I think we have to ride it a few times before making our minds up.

3. 750 - 1000K range - If you are buying an electronic groupset, you have to charge batteries. Don't want bulky derailleurs? Accept less battery capacity. Or accept semi-wireless a la Shimano. This is not a groupset for endurance racing or bikepacking. I think that 1000K is okay.

4. SRAM gear ratios - The ratios are actually very smart. Just right of the middle of the cassette, where there's a perfect chainline from the front big chainring, the gaps are the smallest (between 6.25% and 8.5%), while at both ends, the gaps increase to 10% on the fast end and up to about 12% on the slow end. With the smaller chainrings, this tighter middle is where most people will ride it.

5. No updates to crank and brakes - The brakes are industry-leading and the cranks are fine as they are. Don't see an issue here.

6. No rim brake option - This is a non-issue. The market for 5K euro wireless groupsets for rim brake framesets is practically nonexistent.

7. Shifting sucks - One reviewer had issues, could be the setup. Let's get some more independent reviews and real world experiences before we draw general conclusions about the shifting quality.

9. Pricing - Yes, the price is outrageous. Too bad that the only electonic groupset that Campagnolo had was replaced by this one, and that there's still not an affordable electronic group for the people. I hope that we will soon see a Chorus Wireless with sub 1:1 gearing for 2K euro or less. I'd buy that in an instant.

Yes, wireless blips need to be introduced, but SRAM didn't have them either when AXS was introduced.
Yes, an integrated power meter should be an option.

My conclusion is that this is a great leap forward for Campagnolo, but not so much for the groupset industry in general. It is so expensive that I just don't see who this is made for. It's not for the pro's because of the 10T cogs and the small chainrings. It is not for the cycling enthusiasts, because it is at least 2K too expensive for most of them.

Apart from that, excellent groupset, and great so see that Campagnolo is a player again in the market for modern (electronic) groupsets.

by Weenie


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RTW
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by RTW

Are all the pros who ride AXS not using a cassette with a 10 little sprocket?

usr
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by usr

solarider wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:59 am
The overall miss for me can be summarised in 2 words - 'Sport Luxury'. This is Campagnolo's stated vision for the future. The journey from a brand focused on road racing to a brand clearly now focused on lifestyle says it all. They used to be unapologetic about designing things for a very specific purpose - road racing. Since they have lost that focus, and have finally now stated it publicly with the new 'Sport Luxury' strapline, their design and functionality (and pricing!) have changed dramatically.
Sports luxury could be served by going for what they are best at, all mechanical in polished aluminum and titanium, gold-hued carbon and classic shapes. Think Rolex instead of Casio.

But that's not who they want to be, they want to be the supplier of grand tour winners, with the sports luxury buyers following the champions. That's why they had to do that first generation EPS 12s, despite having given up on mechatronics on all the lower tiers, that's why they don't want to bother pros who have never ridden Campagnolo with converting to a thumb shifter.

robeambro
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by robeambro

RTW wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:49 am
Are all the pros who ride AXS not using a cassette with a 10 little sprocket?
As of today and with officially-compatible components, a pro riding Campagnolo would use the 10t a heck of a lot more than a pro riding AXS with the larger chainrings. Then again, most likely old SR rings will still work and that's probably what AG2R will do.

BdaGhisallo
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by BdaGhisallo

0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am


I strongly disagree with your assessment on most points.


7. Shifting sucks - One reviewer had issues, could be the setup. Let's get some more independent reviews and real world experiences before we draw general conclusions about the shifting quality.

Apart from that, excellent groupset, and great so see that Campagnolo is a player again in the market for modern (electronic) groupsets.
Sam Gupta sampled the groupset at a media day in Vicenza - at Campy's HQ. The Campy techs would have done the setup. If they can't set it up to function well, what does that say about the chances of regular mechanics?

PeanutButterCups
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by PeanutButterCups

This post/thread is like pissing up a flagpole.

Bravo........


patchandscruff
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by patchandscruff

Clearly this reviewer is talking a load of paid promotion nonsense etc etc...


*He's not.

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zappafile123
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by zappafile123

0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am

I strongly disagree with your assessment on most points.

1a. Yes, the SRW derailleur is larger than SR EPS, but it contains more electronics and a battery. I believe that form should follow function, and if you're buying a wireless groupset, you need these functions in your derailleur. And for a wireless derailleur, I think it looks great. If you don't like the more bulky looks, buy something more simple.
Campy will decommission the current gen of 12spd EPS. If you're a campy fan, and you want the best (i.e. me, and heaps of other people), you're forced onto SRW. I want to ride *good* campy, which includes 'aesthetically pleasing campy'.
0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am
2a. Shift button design - The vertical layout makes more sense to me than the horizontal layout. Different fingers will rest on the buttons
Go to your bike, drape your hands over your shifters, do your fingers distinctly align with the vertically aligned buttons? They dont. Ergo, when you're in the box with fuzzy vision, you're more likely to miss shift cause its not ergonomic. The shift function should fit your body, not the other way around.
0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am
4. SRAM gear ratios - The ratios are actually very smart.
I probably should have clarified here that my criticism wasnt really about the technology so much as it was about poor marketing strategy. The 10t cog and small rings have copped a lot of bad press. Why take a risk like this if you're already a weak market player?
0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am
5. No updates to crank and brakes - The brakes are industry-leading and the cranks are fine as they are. Don't see an issue here.
So you're fine paying 20% more for exactly the same parts with different logos? Thats... dumb.
0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am
6. No rim brake option - This is a non-issue.
There's a lot of rim brake fans around. Its an issue.
0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am
7. Shifting sucks - One reviewer had issues, could be the setup.
Thats a fair point, I'll pay that. But multiple reviewers have now said front shifting is slow.

0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:37 am
My conclusion is that this is a great leap forward for Campagnolo
Your subsequent points contradict this statement. If it has no target market its a great leap forward into a precipice.
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BenCousins
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by BenCousins

How is it possible to assess that a product is going to be a flop without understanding the purpose of the product?

It's clearly very expensive. This means they are expecting to shift a very small number of units to a very specific customer. The assesment of potential success should be if the person they are targetting at this price point and offering is likely to buy the groupset or not.
7. Apparently, the shifting sucks?
I watched the video. What he described is what I've experienced in every Campagnolo groupset I've ever used, including EPS, in the 20 or so years I've been using Campagnolo.

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zappafile123
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by zappafile123

I think it's also worth adding that both SR mechanical and EPS 12spd groupsets weren't all that good either (aside from the disc brakes which were a standout at the time). This is a continuation of a worrying downward trend.
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by zappafile123

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:58 am
I’m effectively neutral here. I jokingly think the RD looks like the face of a dog that tried to eat a bee
:lol:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:58 am
Campy has been on a path to irrelevance for at least a decade. [...] For better or worse I see a future where Campagnolo takes the easy way out and sells out to a large investor…
Yeah, interesting points there. Honestly, I think it would be good for the brand to be taken in a different direction. As I said in another post, SR12 mech and EPS were unrefined groupsets, and this seems to be adding to that trend. Maybe leadership are just cooked and need to be swapped out by people who have respect for the heritage of the brand and the nous to manage the economics etc. of building a successful brand

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:58 am
3. 750-1000km is plenty of runtime. I easily got in the habit of charging my eTap batteries every Sunday night. And because they are removable, I just keep an extra set of batteries sitting on the chargers.
This is a practical solution. You could probably also carry a battery in a bottle. That said I still think semi-wired is a better solution. Because not only do you get better battery life, you get less clunky derailleurs.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:58 am
4. 10t cogs and the flexibility they allow for = great actually.
As I replied another guy, I should have clarified my criticism was more about it being a bad marketing move rather than the technology being objectively bad. No one can tell the difference between a handful of watts on a setup.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:58 am
5. No need to change what isn’t broken.
The cranks are the aesthetic heart of a GS. I think its super important to do something new, even if there are no functional benefits. And again you're paying 20% more for these components now cause they have the SRW label.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:58 am
6. We all thought Campy would be the last rim-brake holdout. As it turns out they’re the first to completely abandon it…now that’s irony!
100%. I am a diehard rim brake dude. I live in Sydney. I *f##k* dont need disc and I love that my fast bike weighs 6.4kg complete without exotic components. At least in the circles I run there are plenty of people who still love rim brakes and there are plenty of people saying they miss the simpler, quieter days of rim brakes. The market is small, but its there. If no one else does it, you win that market. Campy should have held out.
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by RTW

zappafile123 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:20 am
I think it's also worth adding that both SR mechanical and EPS 12spd groupsets weren't all that good either (aside from the disc brakes which were a standout at the time). This is a continuation of a worrying downward trend.
My experience of Campagnolo is that they have a bit of a thing about getting things to market, perhaps before they are totally polished. SR11 wasn't great for year 1. I moved to Dura Ace as a result. I am now about to pull the trigger on SR12 mechanical rim - but this launch and that experience make me wonder if I am going to regret not purchasing Dura Ace mechanical / rim instead - I know I would have to find a 9100 group.

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by RTW

patchandscruff wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:10 am
Clearly this reviewer is talking a load of paid promotion nonsense etc etc...


*He's not.
But he doesn't tell us anything.....

Better than SRAM AXS - doesn't say why.

Doesn't say anything about the quality of the shifts either.

Reads like a blog post for a retailer who will sell quite a number of these groups to their clients so has concentrated on not being negative.

patchandscruff
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by patchandscruff

RTW wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:40 am
Reads like a blog post for a retailer who will sell quite a number of these groups to their clients so has concentrated on not being negative.
But I'm under the impression nobody is going to buy this new groupset?

by Weenie


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