Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
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Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
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Total votes: 276

alwaystimetotorque
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 pm

by alwaystimetotorque

@graeme_f_k or anyone else that may have ridden/tried the new groupset or knows the answer.

Is there any real world trial that has been undertaken with the 10 tooth cassette and mechanical rear mechs or is there any perceived issue with this pairing?

I don't have any current intention of spending on the new wireless system but I am interested in the benefit of a smaller front chainring which is more readily available and pairing this to the 10 tooth cassette. This would mean that I don't have the issue of trying to find replacement 54 tooth chainrings which are incredibly difficult to get hold of.

A quick switch of my freehub body/axle to the N3W system would allow this to happen. The only stumbling block then is the hefty price tag of the actual SR 10-n cassette. GIven that the N3W freehu is now the Campagnolo standard and with backwards compatability sorted, I wonder whether the earliest trickle down will be Chorus level cassettes with the same ratios as the SR.

Bobbyc123
Posts: 268
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by Bobbyc123

tallboyeu wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:39 pm
mag wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:20 pm
tallboyeu wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am


really? The website of campagnolo is somehow indicating otherwise. As a customer I'll read that as either mechanical (Record, SR, Chorus) or Wireless. no wired EPS.

https://www.campagnolo.com/gb-en/road/g ... groupsets/
I noticed the same and even our local distributor removed almost all of the EPS stuff from their listing.
As I'm one of the few rim brake guys I'm wondering whether I should rush purchasing the EPS 12s groupset while it's still available at some places, or whether it's safe to wait longer (for a better price hopefully)...
What makes you think you'll be able to find spares, such as batteries, a few years later for your planned purchase? Not try to troll, genuinely interested how people perceive legacy EPS support will pan out. It is a very low volume product after all compared to Di2 and AXS.
Actually i tried to find EPS V3 Power Unit and Interface at (EU)european distributors. No luck…
Uk has stock for both of these now. DM me if you're desperate.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Xabi wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:03 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:39 pm

On a separate note, I would be interested in the new wireless product if it was available as an upgrade from the existing groupset (cranks/cassette). I could get on board with buying new wireless FD/RD/Brifters, but would probably go with a different brand if I had to change all components. The new gearing seems to deny this option.

AG2R is doing this. They’re running 11-xx cassettes and standard chainrings. The chain is the same, the cog pitch is the same.
Will campagnolo honor warranty replacements?

It's funny that you release a halo groupset and sponsored elite riders use unsupported combos with older parts.
Of course they will. Campag stipulates using Campag parts as opposed to 3rd party parts.


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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

tallboyeu wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am
graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:21 am
usr wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:15 am
graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:50 am
It may be possible to reprogtam the Mode button as a "thumb button" - it actually sits almost exactly where, ergonomically, the thumb button used to.
Something like that, perhaps with a silly cheap detachable plastic thingy to allow for at least a bit of downward push actuation should have been made part of the communication from day one. It would not matter if it was so bad in practice that literally everybody eventually converted to a "shi" configuration, that would still do the job of being respectful to those who literally bought into their claims of thumb lever superiority all those decades. And it would also prevent much of the negative halo effect SRW has on all groups with a lever arrangement that now suddenly is apparently not good enough for World Tour. That one will even affect Ekar to some amount'
I'd say that the thumb lever was never about being "better" - it was different & some found it more ergonomic than Shimano.
I prefer it - but then, as I said in my original piece, I've used the thumb lever since 1993 so for me it has been a big change.

Some loved it, some hated it - it's still there on the mechanical and wired EPS groups, which let's not forget, are all still in production and available.
really? The website of campagnolo is somehow indicating otherwise. As a customer I'll read that as either mechanical (Record, SR, Chorus) or Wireless. no wired EPS.

https://www.campagnolo.com/gb-en/road/g ... groupsets/
Yes, really (resists the tempotation to scream ...) - screenshot from this morning of current production groups, orderable by importer / distros on at least a 6 month delivery horizon:
Screenshot 2023-06-06 104406.jpg
I'm not in the habit of posting incorrect information.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

ultimobici wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:44 am
Xabi wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:03 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:39 pm

On a separate note, I would be interested in the new wireless product if it was available as an upgrade from the existing groupset (cranks/cassette). I could get on board with buying new wireless FD/RD/Brifters, but would probably go with a different brand if I had to change all components. The new gearing seems to deny this option.

AG2R is doing this. They’re running 11-xx cassettes and standard chainrings. The chain is the same, the cog pitch is the same.
Will campagnolo honor warranty replacements?

It's funny that you release a halo groupset and sponsored elite riders use unsupported combos with older parts.
Of course they will. Campag stipulates using Campag parts as opposed to 3rd party parts.


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Actually - no, not necessarily.

If a team is testing, they are operating outside of the normally warrantied criteria.
As I pointed out (keep pointing out), what is done on the teams has absolutely, nothing - zilch - de nada - niente - to do with either

a) good practice
b) warranty at the time of testing

It may, later, result in an extension of the warranty to include those parts if / when full testing is successfully concluded but in the situation being discussed, the use of 11 & 12s cranksets, 52 / 36, 53/39, 11-29 / 32 "CS19-" pattern cassettes IS NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY IN COMBINATION WITH WL (Caps are deliberate, just to be crystal clear).

This is one reason why ex-team bikes, even if never actually used, are not warrantied.
Any warranty in that case, is the responsibility of the vendor.

It is only when Campagnolo publish a compatibility to the public through the Technical Specification in the catalogue, that the warranty strictly applied, is honoured.

In practice, SCs use their discretion - but that does not extend to blatant abuses of the material.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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Posts: 611
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
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by graeme_f_k

Bobbyc123 wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:19 am
tallboyeu wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:39 pm
mag wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:20 pm

I noticed the same and even our local distributor removed almost all of the EPS stuff from their listing.
As I'm one of the few rim brake guys I'm wondering whether I should rush purchasing the EPS 12s groupset while it's still available at some places, or whether it's safe to wait longer (for a better price hopefully)...
What makes you think you'll be able to find spares, such as batteries, a few years later for your planned purchase? Not try to troll, genuinely interested how people perceive legacy EPS support will pan out. It is a very low volume product after all compared to Di2 and AXS.
Actually i tried to find EPS V3 Power Unit and Interface at (EU)european distributors. No luck…
Uk has stock for both of these now. DM me if you're desperate.
We have had stock, still have stock and have more stock on our back-order.
Just because your favourite box-mover isn't listing it, doesnt mean it's not available.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
Shop Owner / Manufacturer
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

by graeme_f_k

alwaystimetotorque wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:01 am
@graeme_f_k or anyone else that may have ridden/tried the new groupset or knows the answer.

Is there any real world trial that has been undertaken with the 10 tooth cassette and mechanical rear mechs or is there any perceived issue with this pairing?

I don't have any current intention of spending on the new wireless system but I am interested in the benefit of a smaller front chainring which is more readily available and pairing this to the 10 tooth cassette. This would mean that I don't have the issue of trying to find replacement 54 tooth chainrings which are incredibly difficult to get hold of.

A quick switch of my freehub body/axle to the N3W system would allow this to happen. The only stumbling block then is the hefty price tag of the actual SR 10-n cassette. GIven that the N3W freehu is now the Campagnolo standard and with backwards compatability sorted, I wonder whether the earliest trickle down will be Chorus level cassettes with the same ratios as the SR.
Testing of mechanical RDs and 10T top is currently ongoing.

Ditto shifting (particularly under high applied torque loads) of mechanical FDs and the smallest chainring combination (487/32 already approved as it was part of the design criteria for Chorus / CH12 with SR12 mechanical inter-compatibility.

I can see some potential issues with chain control on the 10 sprocket, maybe also with chainstay clearance.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

graeme_f_k wrote:
Bobbyc123 wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:19 am
tallboyeu wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:10 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:39 pm
What makes you think you'll be able to find spares, such as batteries, a few years later for your planned purchase? Not try to troll, genuinely interested how people perceive legacy EPS support will pan out. It is a very low volume product after all compared to Di2 and AXS.
Actually i tried to find EPS V3 Power Unit and Interface at (EU)european distributors. No luck…
Uk has stock for both of these now. DM me if you're desperate.
We have had stock, still have stock and have more stock on our back-order.
Just because your favourite box-mover isn't listing it, doesnt mean it's not available.
We really need a “like” button on here!

Thanks Graeme.


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Dov
Posts: 445
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Location: London

by Dov

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:45 pm
Dov wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 am
This is the exact groupset that everyone clammered for: Wireless, heavier, bigger gear range, disc only, and very expensive... What's the problem?

For years now people have been calling for the death of rim brakes, complaining about wires running from point A to point B, wanting greater gear ranges with ginormous cassettes and bigger tires. This is the world they've made a groupset for. The only thing they didn't do was make it 1x.
Very few people have been clamoring for the death of rim brakes, so don’t resort to this strawman. Many of us have just been pointing out that nobody, not even the rim-brake bike fan, is buying rim-brake stuff in quantities that make sense from the standpoint of continued development/production.
There is really nothing wrong with mechanical shifting and rim brakes on road bikes. It has and does continue to work. There are obvious benefits (albeit limited and with their own associated trade-offs) to disc brakes and electronic gear shifting but surely we can all agree that the move from the old modalitiy is orchestrated not by functional necessity but by the need for the market to continue to supply newness to the consumer - which is toally fine, and I'm in no way making some hegemonic 'big bike' claim - but the endless pursuit of improvements to something that is now a very very long way down the design pipeline (derailleurs are 90+ years old) is becoming a bit reductive.

I expect that the next groupsets form SRAM and Shimano will be equally underwhelming as they try in earnest to sell a 1% improvement for the price of second-hand car.

From that which I've read and can see online I think the SR WRL grouspet is fine - a decent offering form Campagnolo given the deisgn constraints of patents, changing market dynamics, and very limited scope for real and tangible improvment to the experince of cycling a bike, but would I buy it? Maybe. Am I excited by it? *f##k* no.
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Vespasianus
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by Vespasianus

graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:46 am
tallboyeu wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am
graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:21 am
usr wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:15 am


Something like that, perhaps with a silly cheap detachable plastic thingy to allow for at least a bit of downward push actuation should have been made part of the communication from day one. It would not matter if it was so bad in practice that literally everybody eventually converted to a "shi" configuration, that would still do the job of being respectful to those who literally bought into their claims of thumb lever superiority all those decades. And it would also prevent much of the negative halo effect SRW has on all groups with a lever arrangement that now suddenly is apparently not good enough for World Tour. That one will even affect Ekar to some amount'
I'd say that the thumb lever was never about being "better" - it was different & some found it more ergonomic than Shimano.
I prefer it - but then, as I said in my original piece, I've used the thumb lever since 1993 so for me it has been a big change.

Some loved it, some hated it - it's still there on the mechanical and wired EPS groups, which let's not forget, are all still in production and available.
really? The website of campagnolo is somehow indicating otherwise. As a customer I'll read that as either mechanical (Record, SR, Chorus) or Wireless. no wired EPS.

https://www.campagnolo.com/gb-en/road/g ... groupsets/
Yes, really (resists the tempotation to scream ...) - screenshot from this morning of current production groups, orderable by importer / distros on at least a 6 month delivery horizon:

Screenshot 2023-06-06 104406.jpg

I'm not in the habit of posting incorrect information.
Maybe it is the country? In the USA, EPS has dissapeared.

This is the only thing that shows up.
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alwaystimetotorque
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 pm

by alwaystimetotorque

graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:09 am
alwaystimetotorque wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:01 am
@graeme_f_k or anyone else that may have ridden/tried the new groupset or knows the answer.

Is there any real world trial that has been undertaken with the 10 tooth cassette and mechanical rear mechs or is there any perceived issue with this pairing?

I don't have any current intention of spending on the new wireless system but I am interested in the benefit of a smaller front chainring which is more readily available and pairing this to the 10 tooth cassette. This would mean that I don't have the issue of trying to find replacement 54 tooth chainrings which are incredibly difficult to get hold of.

A quick switch of my freehub body/axle to the N3W system would allow this to happen. The only stumbling block then is the hefty price tag of the actual SR 10-n cassette. GIven that the N3W freehu is now the Campagnolo standard and with backwards compatability sorted, I wonder whether the earliest trickle down will be Chorus level cassettes with the same ratios as the SR.
Testing of mechanical RDs and 10T top is currently ongoing.

Ditto shifting (particularly under high applied torque loads) of mechanical FDs and the smallest chainring combination (487/32 already approved as it was part of the design criteria for Chorus / CH12 with SR12 mechanical inter-compatibility.

I can see some potential issues with chain control on the 10 sprocket, maybe also with chainstay clearance.
:thumbup:

Thanks GFK - always insightful and you're missed in the facebook world btw - that's exactly where my head was at with the potential issues - look forward to any updates on the testing as and when.

alwaystimetotorque
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 pm

by alwaystimetotorque

Vespasianus wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:35 am
graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:46 am
tallboyeu wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:06 am
graeme_f_k wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:21 am

I'd say that the thumb lever was never about being "better" - it was different & some found it more ergonomic than Shimano.
I prefer it - but then, as I said in my original piece, I've used the thumb lever since 1993 so for me it has been a big change.

Some loved it, some hated it - it's still there on the mechanical and wired EPS groups, which let's not forget, are all still in production and available.
really? The website of campagnolo is somehow indicating otherwise. As a customer I'll read that as either mechanical (Record, SR, Chorus) or Wireless. no wired EPS.

https://www.campagnolo.com/gb-en/road/g ... groupsets/
Yes, really (resists the tempotation to scream ...) - screenshot from this morning of current production groups, orderable by importer / distros on at least a 6 month delivery horizon:

Screenshot 2023-06-06 104406.jpg

I'm not in the habit of posting incorrect information.
Maybe it is the country? In the USA, EPS has dissapeared.

This is the only thing that shows up.
@Vespasianus - I think you're missing the point as I believe that GFK is looking at a trade portal whereas you're looking at Joe public website. GFK knows...

rudye9mr
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Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 12:01 pm

by rudye9mr

Can the dealers ask that the "super" be in Tron-esque blue for the WRL gruppo? I think it'll look awesome.

RTW
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by RTW

graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:01 am
In practice, SCs use their discretion - but that does not extend to blatant abuses of the material.
:) People never seem to understand this. If you are in charge of warranties, you see some warranties - and lots and lots and lots of non-warranties being passed off as warranties. As Graeme says, if you work with the product day in day out, you know just by looking if a product has been misused. When I was at Assos, we would get things sent to us all the time which we could tell have been washed in a hot wash (30 degrees is the max you should use) or tumble dried, and thus had been damaged by the owner. Of course, the owner claimed they hadn't been. Like Graeme says upthread with the scratching, we could tell by the stitching. It would annoy us - being lied to does that to people.

My advice to anyone is to be reasonable. Put in a warranty claim if it is a warranty, but be honest. If you used something with other components, say so. If you were a fool, write and say "I messed up, but can you help me please?".... you're more likely to get help than if you claim you were JRA, because, you know... that is REALLY rare.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

RTW wrote:
graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:01 am
In practice, SCs use their discretion - but that does not extend to blatant abuses of the material.
:) People never seem to understand this. If you are in charge of warranties, you see some warranties - and lots and lots and lots of non-warranties being passed off as warranties. As Graeme says, if you work with the product day in day out, you know just by looking if a product has been misused. When I was at Assos, we would get things sent to us all the time which we could tell have been washed in a hot wash (30 degrees is the max you should use) or tumble dried, and thus had been damaged by the owner. Of course, the owner claimed they hadn't been. Like Graeme says upthread with the scratching, we could tell by the stitching. It would annoy us - being lied to does that to people.

My advice to anyone is to be reasonable. Put in a warranty claim if it is a warranty, but be honest. If you used something with other components, say so. If you were a fool, write and say "I messed up, but can you help me please?".... you're more likely to get help than if you claim you were JRA, because, you know... that is REALLY rare.
^This 100%.


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