Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:03 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:59 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:59 pm


If you goto the Campagnolo website and select the crank from the groupset, goto technical specs documents.. at the crank section there is a statement that says the 12s crank are compatible SOLELY AND EXCLUSIVELY with the wireless groupset..

/https://www.campagnolo.com/on/demandwar ... 23_ENG.pdf

Does the group have any sensor to know if you have some cranks or others? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...

What do you want Campagnolo to say...don't Shimano and Sram also say similar things??? and then all kinds of mixes are made......
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...
Right and any kind of "mixes made" as you said also void your warranty... there's people with pull on here that have said that before who I trust and deal with regularly... and whos to say the number of chain drops and mechanicals lately in pro races isn't because of the "mixes being made" the more techy this stuff gets, the more finicky this stuff gets....

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Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:30 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:03 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:59 pm



Does the group have any sensor to know if you have some cranks or others? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...

What do you want Campagnolo to say...don't Shimano and Sram also say similar things??? and then all kinds of mixes are made......
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...
Right and any kind of "mixes made" as you said also void your warranty... there's people with pull on here that have said that before who I trust and deal with regularly... and whos to say the number of chain drops and mechanicals lately in pro races isn't because of the "mixes being made" the more techy this stuff gets, the more finicky this stuff gets....

warranty? what problem could there be? How would the brand know if you used one thing or another........I've been involved in this bike business (not professionally) since I was 16-17 years old (I'm almost 55) I don't consider myself very smart.... but I do not see certain "ghosts" in certain matters of material that it seems that you see some

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zappafile123
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:24 am

by zappafile123

Vespasianus wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:36 pm
1. Outrageously large derailleurs

Meh.

1b. logo aesthetics - thumbs down
Meh.

2a. Stupid shifter button design
Meh.

2b. No thumb shifter
Agree. The existing "dog" design or the EKAR works perfectly fine.

3. 750-1000km range?
Meh. This is fine.

4. SRAM gear ratios
Meh. This is fine.

5. No update to the brakes/crankset?
Meh. A crankset is a crankset. The brakes are excellent and remain excellent. What is a huge miss is paying that price without a power meter.

6. No rim brake option
Meh. Horse is not only dead but rotting.

7. Apparently, the shifting sucks?
Meh. Not concerned and think it will get sorted.

9. Price
Meh. Same as SR EPS. Could not afford that and can't afford thhis.

Conclusion
Meh. I like the Campag design and am really sad to see it change. I do agree that this could have been better bridged. Have a thumb button as well. EKAR is fantastic to me and if they go electronic - which is STUPID to me - and drop the thumb shifter, I will be very, very sad.
Great response, that made me lol. I totally get the horse is rotting.
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ParisCarbon
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:51 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:30 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:03 pm


I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...

What do you want Campagnolo to say...don't Shimano and Sram also say similar things??? and then all kinds of mixes are made......
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...
Right and any kind of "mixes made" as you said also void your warranty... there's people with pull on here that have said that before who I trust and deal with regularly... and whos to say the number of chain drops and mechanicals lately in pro races isn't because of the "mixes being made" the more techy this stuff gets, the more finicky this stuff gets....

warranty? what problem could there be? How would the brand know if you used one thing or another........I've been involved in this bike business (not professionally) since I was 16-17 years old (I'm almost 55) I don't consider myself very smart.... but I do not see certain "ghosts" in certain matters of material that it seems that you see some
No one knows how the internals work except them... Im just stating what was on the website and in the manual. if you want to mix n match, go for it... if you wanna cheat the warranty if something misfires, thats your choice..

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Now the cat's out of the bag, I would love to know graeme_f_k's real thoughts on the groupset itself as well as any insight he may have to the design and decision making process.

Of course, for commercial and IP reasons I'm sure he can't/won't share but it'd certainly be interesting.

Not least, I'd love to know how Campy *thinks* it turned out as a product. Is it what they thought it'd be when it went from prototyping to pre-production to production, or do they themselves feel disappointed at what they've ultimately delivered?

Do they wish they'd maybe taken a different direction (internal battery, eKar first....?) in retrospect, given what appears to be very lukewarm response on forums and in media...?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Seems pretty clear that they really, really wanted the external/removable battery solution and were willing to complicate things in order to avoid litigation. It would have been really easy to retain the internal battery of EPS.

The dichotomy between Ekar and SRW is weird. SRAM did a wonderful thing by creating a harmonious ecosystem. Shimano still hasn't done this without Di2 on the MTB side, without 12spd on GRX, without a unified DM/modular crank system, etc. Ekar is 13spd, but 1x only. Ekar is mechanical only. SRW is 12spd and really only suitable for 2x with its cassette ranges. SRW only supports tires up to 34mm. It is entirely inappropriate for gravel, so where does Ekar go from here. Even with the optional 9t cog and 13 speeds, Ekar would benefit from a 2x option...but if Ekar goes 2x13, it would upstage SRW.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Ritxis wrote:
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:30 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 pm
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:03 pm
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...

What do you want Campagnolo to say...don't Shimano and Sram also say similar things??? and then all kinds of mixes are made......
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...
Right and any kind of "mixes made" as you said also void your warranty... there's people with pull on here that have said that before who I trust and deal with regularly... and whos to say the number of chain drops and mechanicals lately in pro races isn't because of the "mixes being made" the more techy this stuff gets, the more finicky this stuff gets....

warranty? what problem could there be? How would the brand know if you used one thing or another........I've been involved in this bike business (not professionally) since I was 16-17 years old (I'm almost 55) I don't consider myself very smart.... but I do not see certain "ghosts" in certain matters of material that it seems that you see some
The manufacturer will know because the dealer is not going to lie for you. That’s why we really the warrant is voided by using parts not designed to be used in the system. That one time a dealer does lie on your behalf will often come back to bite them down the line for another customer. We’ll paint things in the best light for a customer but there’s a line. Remember, the manufacturer will have seen how a parts fail with the right kit as opposed to an alternative part more often than a dealer and their customer. When a manufacturer trusts a dealer they will pass non-warranty claims for goodwill. When that trust has gone or is in question, they’ll often be more rigid in their interpretation.


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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

TobinHatesYou wrote:Seems pretty clear that they really, really wanted the external/removable battery solution and were willing to complicate things in order to avoid litigation. It would have been really easy to retain the internal battery of EPS.

The dichotomy between Ekar and SRW is weird. SRAM did a wonderful thing by creating a harmonious ecosystem. Shimano still hasn't done this without Di2 on the MTB side, without 12spd on GRX, without a unified DM/modular crank system, etc. Ekar is 13spd, but 1x only. Ekar is mechanical only. SRW is 12spd and really only suitable for 2x with its cassette ranges. SRW only supports tires up to 34mm. It is entirely inappropriate for gravel, so where does Ekar go from here. Even with the optional 9t cog and 13 speeds, Ekar would benefit from a 2x option...but if Ekar goes 2x13, it would upstage SRW.
Sram’s harmonious ecosystem is a lot easier for them to do than it would have been for Shimano due to their lack of 2x off road. Sram still restrict it as, as far as I can see, an Eagle rear mech won’t work with a 2x system. The XPLR line is also 1x only.


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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

ultimobici wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:33 am

Sram’s harmonious ecosystem is a lot easier for them to do than it would have been for Shimano due to their lack of 2x off road. Sram still restrict it as, as far as I can see, an Eagle rear mech won’t work with a 2x system. The XPLR line is also 1x only.

Officially no, but you can actually pair an Eagle or XPLR RD with a FD. You wouldn't really want to though since those RDs use an unsprung b-knuckle and offset guide pulleys.

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

ultimobici wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:28 am
Ritxis wrote:
ParisCarbon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:30 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 pm



What do you want Campagnolo to say...don't Shimano and Sram also say similar things??? and then all kinds of mixes are made......
I wouldnt specifically say a sensor, but on the cyclingnews website on the launch date, there was a blurb that mentioned the old cassettes were not recommended due to the arc of the rear derailleur... Id suspect the possibly the wireless is finicky on knowing the chainrings (I don't know) and the arc the FD takes... I dunno I didnt design the stuff, and am only assuming stuff off what cyclingnews stated...
Right and any kind of "mixes made" as you said also void your warranty... there's people with pull on here that have said that before who I trust and deal with regularly... and whos to say the number of chain drops and mechanicals lately in pro races isn't because of the "mixes being made" the more techy this stuff gets, the more finicky this stuff gets....

warranty? what problem could there be? How would the brand know if you used one thing or another........I've been involved in this bike business (not professionally) since I was 16-17 years old (I'm almost 55) I don't consider myself very smart.... but I do not see certain "ghosts" in certain matters of material that it seems that you see some
The manufacturer will know because the dealer is not going to lie for you. That’s why we really the warrant is voided by using parts not designed to be used in the system. That one time a dealer does lie on your behalf will often come back to bite them down the line for another customer. We’ll paint things in the best light for a customer but there’s a line. Remember, the manufacturer will have seen how a parts fail with the right kit as opposed to an alternative part more often than a dealer and their customer. When a manufacturer trusts a dealer they will pass non-warranty claims for goodwill. When that trust has gone or is in question, they’ll often be more rigid in their interpretation.


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....and why have you taken it for granted that there may be a problem by using current cranks and cassettes, not this 12 wireless...since something has to break....I ask again, why? there is something in the dimensions of the new cassettes and cranks..in case it is not like that and it only changes the range.....seeing strange things I do not see it serious...more when the brand has said that it is open to changes in that regard for Professionals

If a previous 12 11-29 cassette is the same in measurements as the new 10-29, can there really be a fault? because? let me tell you... the same thing about the cranks, if the derailleur can move the chain up and down in a new 50-34, what a problem "old" 50-34 can give... the chain doesn't it's the same???

Problems......I don't see it in that aspect... it's more... I would gamble that the rear derailleur could "eat" an 11-32 and work well

What brand doesn't say that if you use something not "developed" together, it can give the best result? "real" reason that you spend more money on the new

robeambro
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Anybody commented yet on the great value batteries? Imagine needing a spare for whatever reason (or wanting a spare for ease of use)

https://www.bike-discount.de/it/campagn ... 2-velocita

solarider
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm

by solarider

I can only assume that is a mistake. Anybody seen them for that price elsewhere?

If it is true then Campagnolo are really taking the proverbial with their pricing. You can get a battery with a free laptop attached for a lot less than that!!!!!!!! It's just a battery with a small PCB and a bespoke injection molded case. Either that or they have amortised some scary development costs (and legal fees to avoid the hundreds of SRAM and Shimano patents!) over a very small number of groupset sales.

The early adopter tax is high with this one. If they do eventually trickle down the technology then they can't possibly sustain that price for a battery, and they would lose credit if they significantly lowered the price later.

As an aside, I have been watching Matt Armstrong struggle to rebuild a broken Lamborghini on YouTube. There are many parts that Lamborghini charge a massive Lamborghini tax for. The front indicator for example is from a late 1990's Ford KA. Lamborghini want $600 for it from memory and Ford want $20. I can't help thinking that they teach different economic principles at business school in Italy.

The more I read and think about this, Campagnolo clearly don't expect to sell many of these groupsets. Their pricing is something of a self fulfilling prophecy and based on some fairly hefty R&D and a misplaced assumption of their price elasticity and brand value. They know that they have lost the volume battle. They know they have lost the price battle. Somewhere in Vicenza is a Boston Grid with everybody else plotted and they saw a small but vacant market position and decided to play in that particular space. It is a small space, but theirs to own.

Ultimately price plays a massive part in my disappointment. No groupset is perfect. In some respects SR is better than the competition, in some respects worse. On balance if I was being kind I would say it is on par with the others taking many things into account. The issue is that they want to command a significant premium for something that simply isn't justifiable either subjectively or objectively. I can live with many of SR's drawbacks but when something is priced at perfection, then I expect the moon on a stick.

Charging that much for batteries when part of the benefit of wireless is to chuck a spare battery (or in this case 2 since the front and rear are different!) in your back pocket just in case. I have done that with SRAM for years and always felt a certain respect for SRAM for not fleecing me on the price of batteries when they have a total monopoly on the product. On the contrary I have lost a lot of respect for Campagnolo if this pricing turns out to be correct.

I too would love to hear Graeme's view if he is feeling brave. The forums feel like a fairly hostile place for Campagnolo right now and I appreciate that whilst Graeme isn't an official spokesman for Campagnolo, he does have great insight and knowledge. I always value his input and Campagnolo have made many sales to me based on Graeme's explanation of the thought process and reasons that go into their products. Maybe he is waiting for the dust to settle a little first which I totally respect.
Last edited by solarider on Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:55 am, edited 4 times in total.

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

robeambro wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:03 am
Anybody commented yet on the great value batteries? Imagine needing a spare for whatever reason (or wanting a spare for ease of use)

https://www.bike-discount.de/it/campagn ... 2-velocita
440 € really Geroge? :oops: :oops: :oops:

is it justifiable? someone sure does........ :roll: :roll: :roll:
made with some material from Mars or Saturn's rings? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Seeing the size of the batteries (different) I launch this personal reflection....... and if there is "no" patent problem? and Campagnolo's "problem" has been the load capacity and that is why the rear is bigger???
Imagine the small one at the back (what autonomy would it give? then imagine the big one in front..... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Batteria-tre4-SUPER-RECORD-WRL-2024_800x800.jpg

jih
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm

by jih

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:01 pm
Bobbyc123 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:36 pm

3. 750-1000km range?
I have a big problem here. This is awful. I don't get the whole appeal for wireless anyway. It doesn't suit the end user. You need to route cables anyway, i'd prefer to have a longer battery life. If you've got more than one bike in rotation, it becomes even more annoying to need to keep on top of the charge. the hassle of charging does not outweigh the benefit of wireless.

You don’t have to keep track. All you have to do is keep one extra set of batteries connected to the charge cable and swap them to whichever bike you want to ride for the next few hours, days, etc. It’s not like you can somehow discharge the batteries on two bikes at once, and you can fully charge a set of batteries in about an hour. You can’t discharge a set of batteries in an hour.
It's even easier than this. Finish ride, turn head unit off. If head unit tells you batteries are low, charge them. That's what I've been doing since eTap v1, never seemed like an issue.

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

solarider wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:41 am
I can only assume that is a mistake. Anybody seen them for that price elsewhere?

If it is true then Campagnolo are really taking the proverbial with their pricing. You can get a battery with a free laptop attached for a lot less than that!!!!!!!! It's just a battery with a small PCB and a bespoke injection molded case. Either that or they have amortised some scary development costs (and legal fees to avoid the hundreds of SRAM and Shimano patents!) over a very small number of groupset sales.

The early adopter tax is high with this one. If they do eventually trickle down the technology then they can't possibly sustain that price for a battery, and they would lose credit if they significantly lowered the price later.

As an aside, I have been watching Matt Armstrong struggle to rebuild a broken Lamborghini on YouTube. There are many parts that Lamborghini charge a massive Lamborghini tax for. The front indicator for example is from a late 1990's Ford KA. Lamborghini want $600 for it from memory and Ford want $20. I can't help thinking that they teach different economic principles at business school in Italy.

The more I read and think about this, Campagnolo clearly don't expect to sell many of these groupsets. Their pricing is something of a self fulfilling prophecy and based on some fairly hefty R&D and a misplaced assumption of their price elasticity and brand value. They know that they have lost the volume battle. They know they have lost the price battle. Somewhere in Vicenza is a Boston Grid with everybody else plotted and they saw a small but vacant market position and decided to play in that particular space. It is a small space, but theirs to own.

Ultimately price plays a massive part in my disappointment. No groupset is perfect. In some respects SR is better than the competition, in some respects worse. On balance if I was being kind I would say it is on par with the others taking many things into account. The issue is that they want to command a significant premium for something that simply isn't justifiable either subjectively or objectively. I can live with many of SR's drawbacks but when something is priced at perfection, then I expect the moon on a stick.

Charging that much for batteries when part of the benefit of wireless is to chuck a spare battery (or in this case 2 since the front and rear are different!) in your back pocket just in case. I have done that with SRAM for years and always felt a certain respect for SRAM for not fleecing me on the price of batteries when they have a total monopoly on the product. On the contrary I have lost a lot of respect for Campagnolo if this pricing turns out to be correct.

I too would love to hear Graeme's view if he is feeling brave. The forums feel like a fairly hostile place for Campagnolo right now and I appreciate that whilst Graeme isn't an official spokesman for Campagnolo, he does have great insight and knowledge. I always value his input and Campagnolo have made many sales to me based on Graeme's explanation of the thought process and reasons that go into their products. Maybe he is waiting for the dust to settle a little first which I totally respect.
This is a well-written post which echoes a lot of my sentiments.

I fear that Campagnolo genuinely feel they are swimming in the same waters as Lamborghini, and (as you note) have thus greatly overestimated people's willingness to pay a (huge) made-in-Italy, luxury, premium.

But at the risk of repeating myself, they are a company I increasingly don't understand. The one new product everyone was genuinely clamouring for - electronic Ekar - they refuse to make. Their existing high-end mechanical stuff (especially in rim) now occupies a genuine niche (a valid one) but they're not promising to continue with it. There is no attempt to counter SRAM and Shimano at the 105 Di2/Rival AXS level (fine), but then there is precious little racing presence now either. Their new offering is prohibitively priced and won't tempt the >5w/kg guys away from DADi2 in any case.

If anyone here is a member over at the Paceline, then the thread there on this groupset is worth checking out. Most of the guys there are a little older, into their handbuilt bikes, probably a bit more affluent, and generally pro-Campag, but even the reception there is mixed. And Richard Sachs of all people chipped in to suggest that Campag have "lost the plot".

I actually doubt anyone from Campag will ever read threads like this, much less pay attention to them, but if they do, for the love of God take some notice. It is fine to be different and have confidence in your own position, but when so many (typically affluent, enthusiastic, willing-to-spend) potential and future customers are saying 'you're getting it wrong' maybe it's worth reconsidering your approach. I've had Campagnolo on at least one bike since 1997, and I fear that my most recent purchase may have been my last.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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