Why Campagnolo Wireless is a Flop/Disaster

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Did Campy make a bunch of terrible design choices?

Campy released an on trend GS with features and a design I like
77
28%
Campy released a steaming pile of garbage with features I dont like
199
72%
 
Total votes: 276

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zappafile123
Posts: 655
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by zappafile123

I love Campy, I only have campy on my four bikes, and I am *very* disappointed with this release. But more than that, I think some of the choices made by Campagnolo here could threaten their future. Who is going to buy this groupset? Here's a neatly organised list as to why this is the biggest groupset release flop in recent history.

1. Outrageously large derailleurs
The long-term feather in Campy's hat, which has been removed and put on the table is aesthetics. If you pull up a photo of 2nd gen Shimano Di2, the hideous Ultegra 6770, you'll see that the Campy derailleurs are LARGER. How!? Disgusting. Fat. Ugly. No. The derailleurs should be 40% smaller, look at Shimano, its 2023.

1b. logo aesthetics - thumbs down
I dunno, bland, not exciting, doesn’t pop, too subdued. Where is the campy flair?

2a. Stupid shifter button design
Vertical shift button layout? Did anyone think about how the physical structure of hands? Do you have two fingers that naturally extend down to hover unencumbered over vertically arranged each button? NO! Users will have to scrunch their hands, flex their wrists, to adjust the tip or tips of their fingers to hit each button. Dumb. Also two reviewers complained about a sharp edged of the shifter blade cutting into their hand. WTF.

2b. No thumb shifter
Some people don’t like the thumb shifter, that’s cool, no worries, they don’t buy campy. The thumb shifter is great. Yes, it’s not the best for reaching from the drops, but Campy could have just made it easier. The thumb shifter is (by and large) uniquely campy and very ergonomic from the hoods where is where people ride 95% of the time.

3. 750-1000km range?
Right... so some people are going to make sure they charge their batteries once every week and a half? That sounds like a massive pain in the ass. Why go for a gimmick over practical everyday use. This is, in effect, a dig at going wireless. The FSA WE and 9200 approach seems like a practical compromise. Why not do that? Its not at all hard to thread cables through two tubes. The benefit of an internal battery seems to obviously outweigh the benefit of an easier install.

4. SRAM gear ratios
One of the people reviewing the groupset did say that maintaining the perfect cadence was easier than old-school mid compact etc. Cool. Over the last few years, I feel as though I've seen by and large negative media on SRAMs ratios e.g., higher friction, pros demanding bigger rings, hubbards saying the small rings look dorky. Why did Campy go down a path where pretty much everyone said 'na, this is dumb'?

5. No update to the brakes/crankset?
It’s more of a niggling point, but why doesn’t the crankset look new and exciting? Why hasn’t there been an update to the brakes? I get that they were already good, but they have had 5 years to work out how to do something new.

6. No rim brake option
This could be beating a dead horse, and I don’t know sales figures, but I would have thought there was a profitable market niche by remaining the last hold out for high end rim brake group sets.

7. Apparently, the shifting sucks?
A remarkably frank review from Sam Gupta seems to suggest that the apparent steaming pile of garbage outlined above is in fact a steaming pile of garbage. You'd think that with the price, the 5-year gap between group sets that Campy could have at least nailed the shifting?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/ ... s-groupset

9. Price
Pricing needs to be competitive. This whole thing 'we're a luxury brand, we need to be expensive for its own sake' is BS. Currently the pricing looks to be nearly double the cost of Dura Ace. Thats just getting ridiculous, especially when you consider your paying nearly double for an obviously inferior product. You'd have to be blind or dumb to buy this groupset over 9200.

Conclusion
So... Campy went and copied SRAM? Why? SRAM suck. What were Campy thinking with this release? I don’t know. Someone is smoking too much weed in Italy. I cant think of any positives from this release. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Last edited by zappafile123 on Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I’m effectively neutral here. SR Wireless is a fungible groupset with some deep flaws (namely the price and the 34mm tire clearance on the FD. Aesthetics are personal…I jokingly think the RD looks like the face of a dog that tried to eat a bee, but I don’t prioritize looks over functionality.

Campy has been on a path to irrelevance for at least a decade. They failed to take the OEM market seriously, ignored the low/midrange, then pushed out belated half-hearted efforts like Potenza 6 years ago. A company Campy’s size can’t ignore sales volume and total revenue or it will contract. It has to use profits from the mid-market to fund its “passion projects.”

If Campy were a smaller brand or a start-up, the opposite could be true. They could start with low sales volume and a premium/luxury good to grow their footprint, capacity, expertise, capital and reputation… Too bad brands don’t typically survive an expansion/contraction cycle without intervention…

For better or worse I see a future where Campagnolo takes the easy way out and sells out to a large investor…the way things are going, probably one of the many firms owned by Arab royalty. That’s the only way I can see them getting back in the game. Someone has to be willing to put a ton of their own money into backing the brand in the short term.



Now to specifically address your points…

3. 750-1000km is plenty of runtime. I easily got in the habit of charging my eTap batteries every Sunday night. And because they are removable, I just keep an extra set of batteries sitting on the chargers. Zero wait…it’s less of a hassle than lubing a chain and my two chargers are mounted on the side of my shelf right next to where I store my bike. Because I charge every Sunday night, I don’t have to keep track or look at my battery levels. The longer time between charges for Di2 is in a way more annoying to keep track of.

4. 10t cogs and the flexibility they allow for = great actually. Don’t believe the negative press. Treat the 10t cog as an overdrive gear and relish in the increased range with overall smaller jumps in the middle of the cassette where you spend most of your time.

5. No need to change what isn’t broken. Campy”s brake calipers aren’t even their own design…they’re borrowed from Magura. Likewise, if the cranks work, why change anything about them? There is literally nothing new about 2023 Force AXS besides the aesthetics, and I’m okay with that. It certainly saves me from impulse buying the new-new.

6. We all thought Campy would be the last rim-brake holdout. As it turns out they’re the first to completely abandon it…now that’s irony! At least with Shimano they took the innards of the last generation rim-brake levers and updated the ergonomics and firmware. With SRAM, the AXS rim-brake levers are available and should be backward/forward compatible with eTap 11-speed and at least one more AXS update.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

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eurperg
Posts: 936
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Location: Finland

by eurperg

The price of SR wireless group is the same as a complete Canyon Aeroad CF SLX 7 bike, which comes with Rival eTap AXS group with power meter and DT Swiss carbon wheels. And what does the new SR group even do better then the Rival AXS eTap group? It doesn’t measure power and looks bulky compared to Rival.

apr46
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

I pretty much disagree with nearly every point in the original point but still think its going to be a huge miss for Campagnolo.

1-2 dont matter much to me.
3. IF it had swappable batteries this would be non issue. Treating my bikes more like my power tools vs. my phone is a preferece as I dont ride each bike every day and just having a few extra batteries makes range a non issue. However, you cant swap the batteries. Fast charging isnt going to cut it IMO. At best its as annoying as a dead Di2 battery except more often.
4. People complaining about the 10t need to stop citing a study comparing the sizes of the cogs and push for a study that uses a time weighted average of the efficiency of each gear across the cassette. Even just looking at the gears actually used in sprint stages of grand tours, I suspect that there will be close to nothing between Sram / Campagnolo and Shimano.
5, 6, 9. Its 2023 and SR
7. I would wait to evaluate if it really is noticeably worse than the competition until there is more experience with it. SR 11 EPS, for me was the best shifting group i ever used.

The issue for me here is that Campagnolo has followed a strategy of just building better and better for a dwindling audience. While their prices have skyrocketed the relative performance / benefits between top and third tier groups has evaporated. Ekar and the pandemic shortage might have helped them a little, but this groupset is a clear sign to me that they lack the resources needed to build a better group than anyone else as the cost of those incremental benefits. For the second generation in a row, they are putting out a product that is either at par or inferior to the competition.

On the other hand Shimano is heading for a a similar trap with incremental innovations at the top end fueled by SKU rationalization everywhere else, but they have that huge OEM customer base (and fishing business) and as a result a lot more time time turn the ship. Sram seems to be executing an ecosystem play via acquisition despite how difficult that is.

Campagnolo is in a death spiral and needs a buyer or some sort of investment. Since PE rollups have been popular the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised to see them rolled up with brands like Mavic and Speedplay (pried away from Wahoo) in the future. I hope I am wrong.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:19 am
I pretty much disagree with nearly every point in the original point but still think its going to be a huge miss for Campagnolo.

1-2 dont matter much to me.
3. IF it had swappable batteries this would be non issue. Treating my bikes more like my power tools vs. my phone is a preferece as I dont ride each bike every day and just having a few extra batteries makes range a non issue. However, you cant swap the batteries. Fast charging isnt going to cut it IMO. At best its as annoying as a dead Di2 battery except more often.
4. People complaining about the 10t need to stop citing a study comparing the sizes of the cogs and push for a study that uses a time weighted average of the efficiency of each gear across the cassette. Even just looking at the gears actually used in sprint stages of grand tours, I suspect that there will be close to nothing between Sram / Campagnolo and Shimano.
5, 6, 9. Its 2023 and SR
7. I would wait to evaluate if it really is noticeably worse than the competition until there is more experience with it. SR 11 EPS, for me was the best shifting group i ever used.

The issue for me here is that Campagnolo has followed a strategy of just building better and better for a dwindling audience. While their prices have skyrocketed the relative performance / benefits between top and third tier groups has evaporated. Ekar and the pandemic shortage might have helped them a little, but this groupset is a clear sign to me that they lack the resources needed to build a better group than anyone else as the cost of those incremental benefits. For the second generation in a row, they are putting out a product that is either at par or inferior to the competition.

On the other hand Shimano is heading for a a similar trap with incremental innovations at the top end fueled by SKU rationalization everywhere else, but they have that huge OEM customer base (and fishing business) and as a result a lot more time time turn the ship. Sram seems to be executing an ecosystem play via acquisition despite how difficult that is.

Campagnolo is in a death spiral and needs a buyer or some sort of investment. Since PE rollups have been popular the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised to see them rolled up with brands like Mavic and Speedplay (pried away from Wahoo) in the future. I hope I am wrong.

The batteries are removable. The inclusion of onboard charging is no doubt part of some patent minefield circumvention.

I'm convinced people complaining about (4) think they ride bikes differently than they actually do, and I love that the AXS app removes all doubt. If more people could see this kind of data collected from their rides, they'd be at ease with the 10t cog.

Here's a fun one from last night:
Attachments
egan-gears1.png
egan-gears2.png
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:27 am, edited 4 times in total.

usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

Worst thing is the negative halo effect. People will be less enthusiastic about buying e.g. Ekar. Not as in a conscious decision weighing pros and cons, but buying won't feel as attractive. Dud by association.

jlok
Posts: 2400
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:54 am
apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:19 am
I pretty much disagree with nearly every point in the original point but still think its going to be a huge miss for Campagnolo.

1-2 dont matter much to me.
3. IF it had swappable batteries this would be non issue. Treating my bikes more like my power tools vs. my phone is a preferece as I dont ride each bike every day and just having a few extra batteries makes range a non issue. However, you cant swap the batteries. Fast charging isnt going to cut it IMO. At best its as annoying as a dead Di2 battery except more often.
4. People complaining about the 10t need to stop citing a study comparing the sizes of the cogs and push for a study that uses a time weighted average of the efficiency of each gear across the cassette. Even just looking at the gears actually used in sprint stages of grand tours, I suspect that there will be close to nothing between Sram / Campagnolo and Shimano.
5, 6, 9. Its 2023 and SR
7. I would wait to evaluate if it really is noticeably worse than the competition until there is more experience with it. SR 11 EPS, for me was the best shifting group i ever used.

The issue for me here is that Campagnolo has followed a strategy of just building better and better for a dwindling audience. While their prices have skyrocketed the relative performance / benefits between top and third tier groups has evaporated. Ekar and the pandemic shortage might have helped them a little, but this groupset is a clear sign to me that they lack the resources needed to build a better group than anyone else as the cost of those incremental benefits. For the second generation in a row, they are putting out a product that is either at par or inferior to the competition.

On the other hand Shimano is heading for a a similar trap with incremental innovations at the top end fueled by SKU rationalization everywhere else, but they have that huge OEM customer base (and fishing business) and as a result a lot more time time turn the ship. Sram seems to be executing an ecosystem play via acquisition despite how difficult that is.

Campagnolo is in a death spiral and needs a buyer or some sort of investment. Since PE rollups have been popular the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised to see them rolled up with brands like Mavic and Speedplay (pried away from Wahoo) in the future. I hope I am wrong.

The batteries are removable and can be charged in a cradle. The inclusion of onboard charging is no doubt part of some patent minefield circumvention.

I'm convinced people complaining about (4) think they ride bikes differently than they actually do.

I love that the AXS app shows me exactly how much time I spend and the average power done in each sprocket. If more people could see this kind of data collected from their rides, they'd be at ease with the 10t cog.

Here's a fun one from last night:
What's the look of the cradle? Only see the multi-USB charger but not a cradle like SRAM.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

jlok wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:04 am

What's the look of the cradle? Only see the multi-USB charger but not a cradle like SRAM.

Actually I'm probably wrong about there being a cradle. Nevertheless the batteries are still removable.

apr46
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

I think you can remove them to put in new ones, but the charging method is via the magport.

i actually have and carry spare batteries for my axs setups but carrying two campagnolo batteries with each specific to a derailluer somehow seems more taxing.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

apr46 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:12 am
I think you can remove them to put in new ones, but the charging method is via the magport.

i actually have and carry spare batteries for my axs setups but carrying two campagnolo batteries with each specific to a derailluer somehow seems more taxing.

And you can even keep a hot spare on your dropper post. :)

robeambro
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:54 am

I'm convinced people complaining about (4) think they ride bikes differently than they actually do and love that the AXS app removes all doubt. If more people could see this kind of data collected from their rides, they'd be at ease with the 10t cog.
At least you can't read Italian forums where hordes of people are complaining that Campy has "put gravel gearing" on SR, that they will miss having the 53t cause that's how they roll (they say high cadence fatigues you, and that a large chainring promotes smooth and round pedal strokes) and that "nobody needs 1:1 on a road bike". Cycling old school machismo at its best.

usr
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

robeambro wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:22 am
At least you can't read Italian forums where hordes of people are complaining that Campy has "put gravel gearing" on SR, that they will miss having the 53t cause that's how they roll (they say high cadence fatigues you, and that a large chainring promotes smooth and round pedal strokes) and that "nobody needs 1:1 on a road bike". Cycling old school machismo at its best.
I guess the entire "oh, Italian!" brand strategy can't really work there as it just means domestic, so you won't find many Campagnolo riders in Italy other than those left over from the olden days. And even in that age group only the most stubbornly conservative. I wouldn't have guessed what you describe, but it seems very plausible.

solarider
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:08 pm

by solarider

To add to your original list:

The shift lever set up will be difficult to operate with thick gloves.

Lack of a power meter, yet the $1,000 (!) chainset has a crudely blanked off space for one. A $1,000 chainset should look immaculate, note like a power meter with a rough blanking plate.

Lack of remote blips.

The whole friction and 10T thing is a bit of a red herring. Most of us rarely use this gear anyway, and the friction is a tiny element of the overall drag taking everything else into account (rolling resistance, drag from the organic lump pedalling the bike etc).

The overall miss for me can be summarised in 2 words - 'Sport Luxury'. This is Campagnolo's stated vision for the future. The journey from a brand focused on road racing to a brand clearly now focused on lifestyle says it all. They used to be unapologetic about designing things for a very specific purpose - road racing. Since they have lost that focus, along with most of their pro teams and infrastructure, their design and functionality (and pricing!) have changed dramatically.

Whilst very few of us are good enough to race professionally, even the most casual cyclists (including those with the high disposable income that fit the 'Sport Luxury' profile) want to use the kind of product that they see the pros using. Whether that is right or wrong is a subject for a whole different debate, but it is reality and Shimano, Trek and Specialized are living proof of the success of 'Win on a Sunday, Sell on a Monday'. Ironically, Campagnolo made their reputation with exactly that philosophy but since they have gifted Shimano and SRAM an unassailable lead, they have very little chance of regaining that position now and have been forced into a lower volume/higher margin business model. Unfortunately they have failed to produce a product which can justify the price necessary to generate the margin that they need at the volume that they can generate demand for.

There simply isn't a 30% benefit to SR WSL over Dura Ace or Red in terms of 'Sport' and even the 'Luxury' bit seems a bit lacking.

Whilst the demise of Campagnolo has been talked about for a long time, I fear that this dramatic change of direction will change the business forever.
Last edited by solarider on Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:33 am, edited 4 times in total.

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de zwarten
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by de zwarten

Isn't the price the MSRP though?

There is always a difference (sometimes very significant) between MSRP and real price on the market.
If Campa says it's 4500, shops could well be selling < 4000 (let's say 3800). Last time I checked, Dura Ace is somewhere in the 3200-3500 range. So real life differences could be much less than 'double the price'.

Irregardless of the real price difference, I expect perfection for that price, and the gear ratios and different batteries front / rear are really putting me off.
I don't like the placement of the shift buttons either.

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req110
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by req110

Graphics ok.
Hood design is worse than my RED AXS
Thumb shifter was bullcrap anyway, I don't care it's gone.
gearing sounds odd.

i don't know. if I am on market for new bike, I would choose Dura Ace Di2, or even Ultegra 50/34 and 11-30 or 11-34. the only thing is their satellite shifter button are not as good as sram
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