Sram Red Axs and suitable chains

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BiaNeutron
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by BiaNeutron

Hi, I have read that Sram chains have a bit of resistance. Have people fitted lower drag chains, eg Dura Ace, to Red AXS?

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

Sram flattop axs chains are specific to their groupset. They have bigger rollers than regular chains from other brands.

jlok
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by jlok

Anyone got the refreshed KMC X12 chain that said to be compatible with SRAM AXS road?
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Steve Curtis
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by Steve Curtis

Look at the gravel section. There is a massive thread about this

robeambro
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by robeambro

BiaNeutron wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 11:09 am
Hi, I have read that Sram chains have a bit of resistance. Have people fitted lower drag chains, eg Dura Ace, to Red AXS?
The additional drag is negligible especially after a few hours of use, don't take those tests at face value without putting things in context.
That said if you want to run standard (ie non flattop) chains, you'll have to swap other components around as well. There is barely 1w after 2h of use between Force and DA chains, and HALF A WATT after 13h, which is likely to diminish further as you keep riding - and could potentially see Force being faster even.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

BiaNeutron wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 11:09 am
Hi, I have read that Sram chains have a bit of resistance. Have people fitted lower drag chains, eg Dura Ace, to Red AXS?
There's a video clip from Zero friction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQft2bLBVcs

If you don't get it here, i would suggest you mail him and you will understand why you should use your Flattop.
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BiaNeutron
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by BiaNeutron

Thank you everyone. There is some real data here and it seems to be putting me at ease somewhat about Red AXS.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

BiaNeutron wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:27 am
Thank you everyone. There is some real data here and it seems to be putting me at ease somewhat about Red AXS.
I mailed ZF, and after discussion with him, as far as i am concernced, the flattop is the only.
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robeambro
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by robeambro

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:13 am
BiaNeutron wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:27 am
Thank you everyone. There is some real data here and it seems to be putting me at ease somewhat about Red AXS.
I mailed ZF, and after discussion with him, as far as i am concernced, the flattop is the only.
Are you referring to what he says about increased wear (ie the "if you run non flattop chains on AXS it'll be like running them on a very old and worn groupset")?

I confess not understanding much as to the intricacies of these arguments, but I was exploring the idea of using aftermarket rings to have a 48T (which I would like) without losing a 33T or even better getting to 32T (which I need as I have a N=1 groad bike). And ZFC's arguments could put a stop to this ambition.

bobones
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by bobones

robeambro wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:01 am
I confess not understanding much as to the intricacies of these arguments, but I was exploring the idea of using aftermarket rings to have a 48T (which I would like) without losing a 33T or even better getting to 32T (which I need as I have a N=1 groad bike). And ZFC's arguments could put a stop to this ambition.
ZFC has a strong opinion of AXS chain compatibility based purely on theoretical predicted behaviour given the different chain dimensions. Adam at ZFC has admitted he has no experimental data to back up his stance. Meanwhile, KMC and YBN produce 12-speed chains that they claim are AXS or universally 12-speed compatible in direct contradiction to ZFC. Also, Praxis (and I assume others) produce chain rings that they say are also universally 12-speed compatible.

It's a case of who do you want to believe: someone who knows a lot about chains and lubes, with a theory not backed up by evidence, or chain and chainring manufacturers who would be open to litigation if their compatibility claims were not valid or resulted in injury. I would assume KMC, YBN, Praxis and the like have actually tested their products for compatibility, unlike ZFC.

For what it's worth, I run multiple bikes with mixed and pure AXS setups and haven't had any jumping or skipping resulting from mismatched components. The flattop chain works well with Praxis rings and older 11-speed SRAM rings. The KMC X12 chain works OK on my AXS cassettes, but it can be a bit hesitant at times compared to the flattop chain. I also run Shimano 12-speed cassettes with AXS derailleurs and have satisfactory results with KMC X12 and flattop chains, but Shimano chains work best on their own cassettes as you would expect.

My advice would be to try the (claimed compatible) 3rd party rings with the flattop chain, or the X12 KMC if you're worried about premature wear on the rings from the flattop. Hell, you can even just use Shimano cassettes and chains with AXS derailleurs and forget about chain compatibility altogether.

splzd
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by splzd

bobones wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:36 am
Meanwhile, KMC and YBN produce 12-speed chains that they claim are AXS or universally 12-speed compatible in direct contradiction to ZFC. Also, Praxis (and I assume others) produce chain rings that they say are also universally 12-speed compatible.
Of course they claim that. Otherwise they would have to say "offering a specific AXS-compatible chain with the exact dimensions of AXS would cost us lots of money in engineering and manufacturing, so we couldn't be bothered. Offering the same chain for all 12-speed systems is a compromise - it will probably work okay, but might not".

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

The spacing between Shimano and Sram cassettes are different. The RD of AXS has increments made for a narrower spaced cassette and also, the Shimano chain is wider.
I have spoken with ZF directly, so i would say he got quite good backup on what he says.
But all are free to do what they like. I don't need to repeat my opinion as i guess it's pretty clear.
Even Kogel (if we talk oversized RD pulley systems) as an example, have pulley wheels for AXS and they're not same as the Shimano versions.
I also contacted CS and asked same question, and they also say that the upper pulley wheel is the most important.
If you look at it this way, if KMC and YBN produced chains that are specific for Sram, it would generate a quite substancial cost for them.
If they test a standard chain and believe it works good enough, ofcourse they sell it. But if we buy the creme of the creme talking groupsets, isn't it to get the very last drop of premium shifting we look for? Atleast that is what i look for.
In the end we all ride what we like :-)
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padollman
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by padollman

Yeah, not compatible and some manufactureres don't know / don't care.

The rollers are a different diameter, and it is important as I found out after upgrading my pulley wheels to AXS Road 'compatible' ones from Extralite. I even emailed them to check specifically before pulling the trigger as I was surprised that there were other chains also listed as compatible. I spent a few weeks with horrific shifting, no amount of fettling would fix it. Swapped back to the stock AXS pulleys - shifts like a dream.

The Force chains are allegedly a touch faster than the Reds, due to the tighter tolerances on Red (to reduce the weight) creating some additional frictional losses.

Hot wax a Force chain and never look back...
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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

padollman wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:34 pm
Yeah, not compatible and some manufactureres don't know / don't care.

The rollers are a different diameter, and it is important as I found out after upgrading my pulley wheels to AXS Road 'compatible' ones from Extralite. I even emailed them to check specifically before pulling the trigger as I was surprised that there were other chains also listed as compatible. I spent a few weeks with horrific shifting, no amount of fettling would fix it. Swapped back to the stock AXS pulleys - shifts like a dream.

The Force chains are allegedly a touch faster than the Reds, due to the tighter tolerances on Red (to reduce the weight) creating some additional frictional losses.

Hot wax a Force chain and never look back...
Only difference between RED and Force Flattop is RED got hollow pins.
Bikes:

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Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


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padollman
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by padollman

That's what I thought too, but if you look at ZeroFriction testing on both (https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/chaintesting/) the Red comes out worse (once both are lubricated with a performance lube rather than stock grease) I can't see how the hole in the pin alone would cause that, and some have suggested that the tolerancing is tighter on the Red and that's why. I guess the hollow pins could be less stiff leading to additional losses under load when they flex...
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