Force AXS D2 vs UDi2 12sp

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pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:58 am
pmprego wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 8:58 am
Sock3t wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 5:56 am
pmprego wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 10:26 pm


What struggle are you mentioning?
Sepp's problems with batteries, and of course Primoz dropped chain on a 1x setup.
Love is blind and will always be.

Buitrago drops his chain on a shimano bike just yesterday. Almeida lost the ability to fight for volts catalunya because his derailleur went on holidays when the deciding climb started. Shimano has had a very bad 12spd run so far.

Be happy. Be loved. And ride on.
and the one from Sram is something to write home about, right?

Shimano is not perfect, much less Sram.......and perhaps the most blind with love are those who love Sram...with fewer users they have a higher failure rate than Shimano
I read this and a "fodasse..." comes to mind. There are problems with every gruppo, frame, wheelset or tires. It's pointless trying to point fingers. Just move on with life.

Roglic was about to f***ing lose the Giro due to a mechanical and when asked about it he just said "italy hah" and moved on. Just move on as well.

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

pmprego wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:41 am
Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:58 am
pmprego wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 8:58 am
Sock3t wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 5:56 am


Sepp's problems with batteries, and of course Primoz dropped chain on a 1x setup.
Love is blind and will always be.

Buitrago drops his chain on a shimano bike just yesterday. Almeida lost the ability to fight for volts catalunya because his derailleur went on holidays when the deciding climb started. Shimano has had a very bad 12spd run so far.

Be happy. Be loved. And ride on.
and the one from Sram is something to write home about, right?

Shimano is not perfect, much less Sram.......and perhaps the most blind with love are those who love Sram...with fewer users they have a higher failure rate than Shimano
I read this and a "fodasse..." comes to mind. There are problems with every gruppo, frame, wheelset or tires. It's pointless trying to point fingers. Just move on with life.

Roglic was about to f***ing lose the Giro due to a mechanical and when asked about it he just said "italy hah" and moved on. Just move on as well.
if the incident costs Roglic the Giro..."would heads roll" in the technical staff of the Jumbo-Visma???

because anyone can have a mechanical failure....but this case and what was at stake......did the bike have any system to prevent the chain from coming off? If not, who decided (you have to ask at the Trek a few years ago in Milan-San Remo) to take it? well adjusted? if not difficult to explain chain balance with means to avoid it

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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 11:25 am

if the incident costs Roglic the Giro..."would heads roll" in the technical staff of the Jumbo-Visma???

because anyone can have a mechanical failure....but this case and what was at stake......did the bike have any system to prevent the chain from coming off? If not, who decided (you have to ask at the Trek a few years ago in Milan-San Remo) to take it? well adjusted? if not difficult to explain chain balance with means to avoid it

The bike had a chain guide, it was a very bizarre and probably not reproducible drop. 1x SRAM has been ridden without issues at P-R for several years already. You don’t really hear about chain drops in XC MTB either.

Also that’s a big if. Last I checked, Roglic is going to win the Giro today and he didn’t even lose yesterday’s stage. Meanwhile the same can’t be said for Asgreen who failed to defend his Flanders win after a dropped chain.

My guess would be whoever sized Roglic’s chain did so incorrectly and also left the b-gap a little small, so chain tension wasn’t as high as it should have been. That plus the perfect bounce resulted in the chain drop.

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 2:32 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 11:25 am

if the incident costs Roglic the Giro..."would heads roll" in the technical staff of the Jumbo-Visma???

because anyone can have a mechanical failure....but this case and what was at stake......did the bike have any system to prevent the chain from coming off? If not, who decided (you have to ask at the Trek a few years ago in Milan-San Remo) to take it? well adjusted? if not difficult to explain chain balance with means to avoid it

The bike had a chain guide, it was a very bizarre and probably not reproducible drop. 1x SRAM has been ridden without issues at P-R for several years already. You don’t really hear about chain drops in XC MTB either.

Also that’s a big if. Last I checked, Roglic is going to win the Giro today and he didn’t even lose yesterday’s stage. Meanwhile the same can’t be said for Asgreen who failed to defend his Flanders win after a dropped chain.

My guess would be whoever sized Roglic’s chain did so incorrectly and also left the b-gap a little small, so chain tension wasn’t as high as it should have been. That plus the perfect bounce resulted in the chain drop.
Deignan and Longo un P-R
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Van Aert Milan-San Remo
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I find it very difficult to start the chain with systems of this type... especially when the risk of starting is in the upper part of the plate... or bad assembly or another less effective system

apr46
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:58 am
Shimano is not perfect, much less Sram.......and perhaps the most blind with love are those who love Sram...with fewer users they have a higher failure rate than Shimano
If you are going to make this argument, show the receipts.

If you have first hand experience, lets hear it. Otherwise, its just perpetuating internet myth.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

apr46 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 11:52 pm

If you are going to make this argument, show the receipts.

If you have first hand experience, lets hear it. Otherwise, its just perpetuating internet myth.

The failure rate of Shimano R9200-P power meters is 100% as far as I'm concerned.

Eterna7m
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:25 pm

by Eterna7m

pmprego wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:41 am
Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:58 am
pmprego wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 8:58 am
Sock3t wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 5:56 am


Sepp's problems with batteries, and of course Primoz dropped chain on a 1x setup.
Love is blind and will always be.

Buitrago drops his chain on a shimano bike just yesterday. Almeida lost the ability to fight for volts catalunya because his derailleur went on holidays when the deciding climb started. Shimano has had a very bad 12spd run so far.

Be happy. Be loved. And ride on.
and the one from Sram is something to write home about, right?

Shimano is not perfect, much less Sram.......and perhaps the most blind with love are those who love Sram...with fewer users they have a higher failure rate than Shimano
I read this and a "fodasse..." comes to mind. There are problems with every gruppo, frame, wheelset or tires. It's pointless trying to point fingers. Just move on with life.

Roglic was about to f***ing lose the Giro due to a mechanical and when asked about it he just said "italy hah" and moved on. Just move on as well.
I think these people get media trained and as professionals, I would not have expected him to talk bad about their sponsor anyways...

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 4:19 am
apr46 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 11:52 pm

If you are going to make this argument, show the receipts.

If you have first hand experience, lets hear it. Otherwise, its just perpetuating internet myth.

The failure rate of Shimano R9200-P power meters is 100% as far as I'm concerned.
What do you come with to refute Sram's failures........
If the meter fails, whether it's from Shimnao or another brand, you can continue walking without a problem.....don't compare it with failures, more important elements such as derailleurs......

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Ritxis wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:29 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 4:19 am
apr46 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 11:52 pm

If you are going to make this argument, show the receipts.

If you have first hand experience, lets hear it. Otherwise, its just perpetuating internet myth.

The failure rate of Shimano R9200-P power meters is 100% as far as I'm concerned.
What do you come with to refute Sram's failures........
If the meter fails, whether it's from Shimnao or another brand, you can continue walking without a problem.....don't compare it with failures, more important elements such as derailleurs......
By derailleur you mean when Almeida's rear one stopped working on the deciding climb of volta catalunya? Or when pogacar had a drop chain in tirreno when mvdp attacked? Ah... You meant when Formolo had a drop chain when was trying to thin out the group and it was roglic who pushed him up the climb so he could put his chain back.

Everyone has stories to tell. Just let it go. Here we don't see faces but this type of arguments just sounds to me like kids arguments.

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

apr46 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 11:52 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:58 am
Shimano is not perfect, much less Sram.......and perhaps the most blind with love are those who love Sram...with fewer users they have a higher failure rate than Shimano
If you are going to make this argument, show the receipts.

If you have first hand experience, lets hear it. Otherwise, its just perpetuating internet myth.
ask Sram how many rear derailleurs he had to change under warranty??? It's not a lie that Sram has had and has more flaws than the competition, dead rear derailleurs, derailleurs that spit out the chain... even with the tool that they had to remove later to install it, it continues to happen.... ..or is it that the people who report bugs are lying??
I'm going to tell you one... a demo day from the Argon 18 dealer (it's also a Sram dealer)...in a powerful shop in my area, he brought bikes assembled with Red and Force AXS
We did one on a 65 km route. about 8 people...3 chain outputs 3 through the diverter......

Luckily the TaliSram have the joker of the cranks that open and the "poor" reliability of the potentiometer, from the Japanese

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Ritxis wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:29 am

What do you come with to refute Sram's failures........
If the meter fails, whether it's from Shimnao or another brand, you can continue walking without a problem.....don't compare it with failures, more important elements such as derailleurs......

What Shimano is doing is far worse IMO. They should be issuing a stop-sale and recall for this US$1500 product. It fails at its designed intent, to accurately measure power.

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JayDee81
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:45 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by JayDee81

So far what I am getting from this is that Shimano is doing better what is actually important when you are riding the bike, that is shifting, while Sram is doing better the "quality of life" things such as ease of installation, battery changes etc. that don't matter while you are riding the bike.

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

JayDee81 wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 8:51 am
So far what I am getting from this is that Shimano is doing better what is actually important when you are riding the bike, that is shifting, while Sram is doing better the "quality of life" things such as ease of installation, battery changes etc. that don't matter while you are riding the bike.
That's kind of what I'm taking from it.

I think it seems agreed that Di2 shifts better, especially up front, though that isn't entirely problem free either from looking at threads on here. I'd really like to ride a Force D2 bike to make up my mind, but I don't see that being easy. As it stands, the current favourite is probably a UDi2 setup with a 105 rear mech so I can run the 11-36 for the Stelvio GF and the Fred Whitton. A heavily discounted Red AXS setup would be a contender if I could find one, too.

apr46
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

Ritxis wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:43 am
apr46 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 11:52 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:58 am
Shimano is not perfect, much less Sram.......and perhaps the most blind with love are those who love Sram...with fewer users they have a higher failure rate than Shimano
If you are going to make this argument, show the receipts.

If you have first hand experience, lets hear it. Otherwise, its just perpetuating internet myth.
ask Sram how many rear derailleurs he had to change under warranty??? It's not a lie that Sram has had and has more flaws than the competition, dead rear derailleurs, derailleurs that spit out the chain... even with the tool that they had to remove later to install it, it continues to happen.... ..or is it that the people who report bugs are lying??
I'm going to tell you one... a demo day from the Argon 18 dealer (it's also a Sram dealer)...in a powerful shop in my area, he brought bikes assembled with Red and Force AXS
We did one on a 65 km route. about 8 people...3 chain outputs 3 through the diverter......

Luckily the TaliSram have the joker of the cranks that open and the "poor" reliability of the potentiometer, from the Japanese
My point is that if you are going to make an argument based on failure rate, actual data would be nice or at least personal experience with either the shimano or sram 12spd product. You have neither.

I agree that sram FD setup can be hard and in my experience the design of the frame plays into how hard it is to get it shifting well. It can be done. A lot of people do it. Some people dont have the skill or patience for it. Its been acknowledged throughout this thread.

You have slammed sram 2x and 1x XPLR like they are the same product. They arent. You are literally are here to shit on something you have no data or experience about. Nor have you presented any information to suggested that Shimano 12spd is better on your points of criticism. I am not saying you need iron clad data to have a conversation, but you seem intent on spreading an ill-informed point of view. Why?

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apr46
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

raggedtrousers wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:19 am
JayDee81 wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 8:51 am
So far what I am getting from this is that Shimano is doing better what is actually important when you are riding the bike, that is shifting, while Sram is doing better the "quality of life" things such as ease of installation, battery changes etc. that don't matter while you are riding the bike.
That's kind of what I'm taking from it.

I think it seems agreed that Di2 shifts better, especially up front, though that isn't entirely problem free either from looking at threads on here. I'd really like to ride a Force D2 bike to make up my mind, but I don't see that being easy. As it stands, the current favourite is probably a UDi2 setup with a 105 rear mech so I can run the 11-36 for the Stelvio GF and the Fred Whitton. A heavily discounted Red AXS setup would be a contender if I could find one, too.
I dont have enough experience with 12spd di2 to comment on if the front shifting really has degraded from 11spd. I will say that Sram AXS front shifting is really good, if you can get the setup correct. It can be either very easy or really hard to do that, which I think is dependent on the frame you are using. My carbon gravel bike is what I would call "overly compliant" and it took me a while to get the setup right to shift from the small / big to the big / big combo. My ti road bike on the otherhand set up with the provided tool in ~2 min and has never dropped a chain on the stand or otherwise.

The one big plus for AXS on the bike are the dampers / clutches. I happen to really like having a silent bike and not having to worry about chainslap etc

For everyone else, there are three other things to consider about sram.
- They seem to be willing to warranty anything even if its the riders fault. I broke at sram RD by getting a stick in the drivetrain. I was very clear with them and the shope about what happened. They replaced it with a new unit when i asked about a repair.
- AXS as a product has actually gotten better since I owned it via feedback and firmware updates. Yes, there are limits to what they can do but there is a contrast between what they are doing and the rest of the bike industry in terms of adopting more modern engineering practices.
- They actually will help you find technical documentation / help with technical issues as an individual. Shimano in my experience, either wont respond or will tell you do go to a shop. If you wrench yourself, this is a big difference.

If I was buying a new bike, I wouldnt make a decission either way based on groupset between these two. If I was building a bike, I personally would go sram.

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