Force AXS D2 vs UDi2 12sp

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raggedtrousers
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by raggedtrousers

What's the current consensus on how these 2 groups match up? A brief survey of threads here and elsewhere seems to suggest that Di2 shifts a bit better, but that there are some irritating little bugs like noise in certain cogs and rattling shifters. I haven't seen many complaints about AXS since the arrival of Rival, which the new Force seems largely to copy.

So my questions are, really:

- Is the Force front mech now more reliable?
- Are the reports of Di2 bugs a bit overplayed?
- which would you choose and why?

Thanks

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

At this point I basically comes down to personal preference. I like the look better of shimano because the derailleurs don’t have big bulky batteries hanging of them.

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patchandscruff
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by patchandscruff

raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 10:35 am
I haven't seen many complaints about AXS since the arrival of Rival, which the new Force seems largely to copy.
It doesn't largely copy - totally different mechs, chainset designs and cassettes, plus they're made of different materials. It's just the shifter shape that's becoming universal across the ranges (I'd expect Red will go the same way with the shifter shape when it eventually comes out).

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robbosmans
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by robbosmans

No you are wrong, the derailleurs are identical, they only differ in material.

samarskyrider
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by samarskyrider

I've moved from Rival AXS shifters / Force mech to Ultegra Di2. So MUCH better, front shifting is twice faster and more precise, rear as well. Go for Ultegra as it's much better in every aspect


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Ytse
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by Ytse

raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 10:35 am
What's the current consensus on how these 2 groups match up? A brief survey of threads here and elsewhere seems to suggest that Di2 shifts a bit better, but that there are some irritating little bugs like noise in certain cogs and rattling shifters. I haven't seen many complaints about AXS since the arrival of Rival, which the new Force seems largely to copy.

So my questions are, really:

- Is the Force front mech now more reliable?
- Are the reports of Di2 bugs a bit overplayed?
- which would you choose and why?

Thanks
Let me chime in (even though my personal experience is with the old SRAM Force AXS and 11speed Ultegra Di2). I have ridden my Force AXS equipped bike cca 13000 kms, while my Di2 bike has cca 3000kms on it.

Force AXS pros:
+ obviously very personal, but it's the best looking road groupset right now you can buy (new Force), also SRAM got rid of that terribly looking and prone-to-crack plastic chainring cover
+ fully wireless, easy to install, demount, maintain
+flexibility with removable and interchangeable batteries (even though if you have your groupset paired with your head unit, it will warn you on low battery way ahead)

Shimano Di2 pros:
+better braking (my Di2 bike has better braking on 140mm rotors than the SRAM one with 160mm ones)
+quicker and crisper shifting, especially front (not that SRAM was near bad, Shimano is just better)
+backward compatibility with 11speed Shimano freehubs
+additional button on the hood to wirelessly control your head unit (Garmin, etc)
+longer battery life
+my personal prediction is that Shimano 2x12 will have a larger selection of 3rd party and after-market components (eg. cranksets, sporckets, chains, ... )
2020 Scott Addict RC / 2021 Trek Emonda SLR / 2023 Specialized Tarmac SL8

DaveS
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by DaveS

I prefer AXS to get more range and lower climbing gears. To do that, I use GRX cranks. Campy 12 cranks work too. Riding in Colorado, winter gloves are needed at least 4 months out of every year and the two lever shifters ensure no mistakes. Sram batteries last plenty long enough. I carry a spare, but never used it. I'd rather take the batteries to the charger instead of the whole bike.

Force RD has a better clutch than Rival. The older force FD has no problems, just poor mechanics. I have two that have been in use for almost 3 years and each has been installed on three different frames. No chain drops.

I have one bike with rival derailleurs. Together they weigh 25 grams more than force.

The original force hoods work just fine, even for small hands like mine. The new force shifters have no brake contact adjustment.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I would go for the new Force. I bought AXS Red from Red Etap.
I think AXS is superb!
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
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Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

Nickldn
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by Nickldn

Ytse wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 12:58 pm
Shimano Di2 pros:
+better braking (my Di2 bike has better braking on 140mm rotors than the SRAM one with 160mm ones)
This was one of the chief reasons I chose Di2 over AXS for my other half's bike. Not dealing with DOT brake fluid is also a big plus for Shimano, as is the 24mm spindle of you run BB86.

I love the simplicity of SRAM controls though, just 2 buttons.
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X5SAE
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by X5SAE

I've been running Force and Red AXS for quite some time. Currently there's Force AXS w/Rival levers on my gravel bike, and Dura Ace Di2 9270 on my road bike.

What i like with SRAM:
- simple to setup
- Red cassettes
- small easily charged/swapped batteries
- Red crank for its quality and weight
- ease of updates
- Quarq PMs

What i don't like:
- front shifting (that's why i run 1x)
- weight/dimensions of derailleurs
- porky rubber of Rival hoods
- old hoods' haptic
- some sporadic misshifts with RDs

What I like with Shimano:
- great hood/lever ergonomics
- thin rubber
- crisp(er) shifting
- look and feel of disc brake calipers and derailleurs
- BB86 and 24 mm axle

What I don't like:
- big battery in my seatpost (afraid it could slip out of it on bad roads)
- charging it
- restrictive bearings in DA BB and RD
- App and
- having to connect levers to FD cable in order to update shifters
- quick discharging of battery when using shifters wirelessly
Road
Cube Agree C:62 SLT 2021 (frame+fork) DA 9270 6.9x kg - ride-ready 7.25 kg w/pedals, cages, sensors, Wahoo mount

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Velobuild GF-002 Force AXS 7.5 kg, ride-ready 7.775 kg w/200 ml Stan‘s, pedals, cages, sensors, Wahoo/Cateye mounts

bobones
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by bobones

I currently ride 5 AXS bikes (2 hybrid Sramano) and had 11-speed eTap until last year, so I am biased, but I wouldn't keep buying it if I wasn't happy with it.

The simplicity of installation and maintenance due to it being wireless is one of the main things I like about it: everything is outside the bike, so no hidden batteries or inaccessible wiring. If a derailleur stops working then there's no tricky follow up diagnostics required to check the whole system. One of my riding buddies gave up with Di2 and went back to mechanical because his bike was constantly in and out of the shop with shifting failures related to frame water ingress. That doesn't happen with AXS: if it stops shifting then it's obvious where the problem lies, and you just need to get the failed part replaced, hopefully under warranty!

Probably of little interest to most, but I like that it's easy to neatly install on older bikes with external cable routing, which is why I got started with eTap in the first place: it was the obvious option to bring electronic shifting to my old Scott CR1 in 2017. Even just last year, I bought a rim-brake titanium frameset with external routing for a bargain price and had it up and running with AXS in no time.

Having two means the battery is not a single point of failure, and it's easy to carry a spare or quickly grab one from another bike. Charging is more frequent, but it's a non-issue as you get ample warning via the derailleur/shifter LEDs or head unit, and it only takes about an hour to complete. Charging off the bike is also much more convenient for me.

The AXS app and companion site are also pretty decent, and firmware updates over bluetooth are trouble free.

I've never ridden a Di2 bike, so I can't compare shifting quality or speed, but if set up correctly, AXS is a joy to use, with the two button control intuitive and accurate, even with thick gloves.

I wouldn't get too caught up in whether the new Force FD is better than the older stuff, as it all works the same when it's set up correctly as far as I can tell. However, there's no denying that the new Force chainset is much more attractive, and the new shifter shape suits small hands and looks better. If anything, Rival and the new Force FD are perhaps easier to install and align correctly, but beyond that, any shifting differences are marginal/undetectable IME. Yes, front shifting can be finicky, but, having experienced then resolved the same front shifting problems that others report, I am convinced that most of the issues are down to setup.

I also like the AXS gearing concept with smaller front rings and the 10-tooth cassette as you get plenty of range and can stay in the big ring more of the time. 48/35 with 10-33 is perfect for my usual rolling terrain, and 46/33 with 10-36 provides as wide a range as I'll ever need for super hilly days. Granted, Shimano has caught up to some extent with 12-speed 11-34 and 11-36 cassettes, but I still prefer AXS' smaller jumps at the front as the transition from one ring to another is very smooth and less disruptive on cadence. I've even come to love the sequential shifting mode where you just use left for easier and right for harder then let the system do the front and rear compensation shift for you.

If you're chasing marginal gains, it can't really be argued that Shimano gearing and Dura Ace chains are more efficient, although I believe that is somewhat mitigated by the fewer disruptive front shifts of AXS.

So, to sum up, I love AXS, recommend it, and would/will buy it again, but I have no doubts Di2 is great too, better even in some areas, especially if someone else has installed it for you!

Seamanatorr
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Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:00 pm

by Seamanatorr

I'm also weighing differences between the two. I lean to SRAM since its easier to run a 1x setup for road (very flat area), however I wonder how easy it is to switch cranksets to 2x and also add the front derailleur again if I'm expecting a hilly area.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I’ve found the new Force/Rival mech is easier to set up in the sense that the cage design provides more clearance to the back of the crankarm, but it is still finicky to get just right from a shifting performance sense.

TLN
Posts: 630
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by TLN

I used to have 11sp Etap, currently have old Force AXS with Red PM. My MTB also have GX AXS.
I got some chain drops on the road bike and I'm not 100% happy about it. But overall, it's pretty easy to set up and run, requires no mainteance. I also have no issues with big hoods on Force/Red, but I also have bigger hands. Can't comment if Force clutch doing any good, but doesn't hurt either.
I never tried newer Force/Rival hoods, but I'd like to get one for cheaper/gravel/commute bike.

On the other hand I have bike with Ultegra Di2 coming. Even though it's two sizes smaller than I need, I might take it around the block. I was not interested in original (wired) di2, but latest 12sp look pretty good.
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Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

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DaveS
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by DaveS

Nickldn wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 4:02 pm
Ytse wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 12:58 pm
Shimano Di2 pros:
+better braking (my Di2 bike has better braking on 140mm rotors than the SRAM one with 160mm ones)
This was one of the chief reasons I chose Di2 over AXS for my other half's bike. Not dealing with DOT brake fluid is also a big plus for Shimano, as is the 24mm spindle of you run BB86.

I love the simplicity of SRAM controls though, just 2 buttons.
DOT fluid is absolutely not a problem. It wipes off with water on a rag. Just be sure to use a SRAM bleeding edge bleed kit.

Shimano cranks like any GRX or a 50/34 will work with SRAM AXS.

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