Broken stupid bianchi handlebars on their stupid aero bike

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Lina
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by Lina

guyc wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:37 pm
And maybe lots of them know they're not riding the most aero but they are the most comfy for them.
Like 90% of people I've talked to that have tried narrow bars say that narrower bars were more comfortable for them. The people that need >40 cm bars because their shoulders are just that wide are an extremely small group of of people. Most are better off on narrower bars. Watch people on group rides and almost every single one has people riding with their hands at the bend between tops and drops instead of the hoods, that usually means they're on a too wide bar. Same if their wrists are "inside" the bars when on the drops.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

guyc wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:37 pm
And maybe lots of them know they're not riding the most aero but they are the most comfy for them.
Not to mention in better control of the bike. As the bars are narrower, the effects of jostling for position in the bunch are harder to resist. I wonder if this is one of the causes of silly crashes in the bunch?

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spartacus
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by spartacus

ultimobici wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:35 pm
guyc wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:37 pm
And maybe lots of them know they're not riding the most aero but they are the most comfy for them.
Not to mention in better control of the bike. As the bars are narrower, the effects of jostling for position in the bunch are harder to resist. I wonder if this is one of the causes of silly crashes in the bunch?
I went to very narrow bars + longer stem and tell people they're more stable and the bike handles just as well if not better and they literally CANNOT and WILL NOT believe it. You resist steering input MORE BECAUSE THERE IS LESS LEVERAGE!

Anyway I'm totally done trying to convince anyone now. So over it.
Last edited by spartacus on Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

spartacus
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by spartacus

Lina wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:20 pm
guyc wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:37 pm
And maybe lots of them know they're not riding the most aero but they are the most comfy for them.
Like 90% of people I've talked to that have tried narrow bars say that narrower bars were more comfortable for them. The people that need >40 cm bars because their shoulders are just that wide are an extremely small group of of people. Most are better off on narrower bars. Watch people on group rides and almost every single one has people riding with their hands at the bend between tops and drops instead of the hoods, that usually means they're on a too wide bar. Same if their wrists are "inside" the bars when on the drops.
People that try it and stick with it know what's up.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

spartacus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:50 pm
I went to very narrow bars + longer stem and tell people they're more stable and the bike handles just as well if not better and they literally CANNOT and WILL NOT believe it. You resist steering input MORE BECAUSE THERE IS LESS LEVERAGE!

Anyway I'm totally done trying to convince anyone now. So over it.
I don't doubt your experience. But perhaps your experience is more a product of the longer stem than the narrow bars. Additionally, not only have you lengthened the lever arm with the longer stem, you have likely added more of your weight to the front end. That might also make the steering feel a bit more stable.

Insisting that one can "resist steering input more because there is less leverage" is the same as saying that a short handled wrench applies more torque than a longer handled wrench. That's why the people you speak to "literally cannot and will not believe it".

Ultimately steering is so free in a bicycle that leverage is more than adequate regardless of bar width. But no one is struggling with not having strength to turn the bars or keep them straight. Rather the issue for some seems to be the decreased precision/control and balance as hand position gets closer to the steering axis. You want scary - join a group ride of fifty years olds that have taken up cycling in the last few years. Now imagine them all on 36cm bars - that is scary.
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spartacus
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by spartacus

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:50 pm
spartacus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:50 pm
I went to very narrow bars + longer stem and tell people they're more stable and the bike handles just as well if not better and they literally CANNOT and WILL NOT believe it. You resist steering input MORE BECAUSE THERE IS LESS LEVERAGE!

Anyway I'm totally done trying to convince anyone now. So over it.
I don't doubt your experience. But perhaps your experience is more a product of the longer stem than the narrow bars. Additionally, not only have you lengthened the lever arm with the longer stem, you have likely added more of your weight to the front end. That might also make the steering feel a bit more stable.

Insisting that one can "resist steering input more because there is less leverage" is the same as saying that a short handled wrench applies more torque than a longer handled wrench. That's why the people you speak to "literally cannot and will not believe it".

Ultimately steering is so free in a bicycle that leverage is more than adequate regardless of bar width. But no one is struggling with not having strength to turn the bars or keep them straight. Rather the issue for some seems to be the decreased precision/control and balance as hand position gets closer to the steering axis. You want scary - join a group ride of fifty years olds that have taken up cycling in the last few years. Now imagine them all on 36cm bars - that is scary.
You're missing the point here I think. I'm not talking about the person resisting steering input, I'm taking about them not adding input. The bike itself would go straight if left unattended, the person putting input into the bars is what will make it not go straight, therefore less leverage = less steering input. On a road bike there isn't really anything forcing the bars to turn acting on the wheel (maybe wind sometimes), and you turn mostly by leaning so the handling isn't negatively affected by narrow bars. If anything pedaling and unstable form will result in more steering input if there's more leverage.

I can't really comment on people with poor bike fit/balance etc... I don't ride with C groups or anything like that so who knows. I can't stand riding with sketchy people.

Anyway I guess that's "just my opinion"

apr46
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by apr46

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:50 pm
I don't doubt your experience. But perhaps your experience is more a product of the longer stem than the narrow bars. Additionally, not only have you lengthened the lever arm with the longer stem, you have likely added more of your weight to the front end. That might also make the steering feel a bit more stable.

Insisting that one can "resist steering input more because there is less leverage" is the same as saying that a short handled wrench applies more torque than a longer handled wrench. That's why the people you speak to "literally cannot and will not believe it".
Totally a tangent not related to Bianchi, but @Mr.Gib you are compounding 3 different concepts in a way that is leading you to an incorrect set of assumptions.

Capsize speed, the minimum speed at which a 2 wheeled system is stable, can be considered dependent on center of mass location and head angle. Lower center of mass and steeper head angle have a lower capsize speed.

Fall rate, how fast a 2 wheeled system falls is dependent on the height of the center of mass. Lower falls faster in terms of angle, and therefore deviates from a stable state at a faster rate.

Rate of steering input, often used to initiate lean via countersteer is based on how fast you move your hands relative to their placement from the steering axis of the bike. Compared to a 440mm bar and 100mm stem, a 360mm bar has ~90% of that distance with a 120mm stem and ~95% of the distance if a 140mm stem is used. Those are pretty substancial changes. Riders with shaky hands or nerves could certainly accidentally lose their line as a result, but thats not a lack of system stability but reduced steering ratio.

@Spartacus introduced the concept of steering leverage or feedback to the discussion. This is relative to the length of the lever pushing back, or the trail of the bike. Assuming you dont change the trail he is making the correct point that you will need to exert more effort with a narrower bar. Its debateable if that is a good thing or not as it can feel like you are fighting the bike around corners which is NOT something an inexperienced rider would enjoy and could result in difficulty following tight lines in a bunch. A gravel bike with road bars on a fast road descent can be an example of this being rather unpleasant.

spartacus
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by spartacus

apr46 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:58 pm


@Spartacus introduced the concept of steering leverage or feedback to the discussion. This is relative to the length of the lever pushing back, or the trail of the bike. Assuming you dont change the trail he is making the correct point that you will need to exert more effort with a narrower bar. Its debateable if that is a good thing or not as it can feel like you are fighting the bike around corners which is NOT something an inexperienced rider would enjoy and could result in difficulty following tight lines in a bunch. A gravel bike with road bars on a fast road descent can be an example of this being rather unpleasant.
I'm not sure about this one, (just personally and only on a road bike) as I feel like I'm leaning and shifting my weight to turn - so from where I'm sitting the bike handles basically the same (I've gone from 42 to 40 to 36 and now to 32cm bars all on not only the same bike but 2 different road bikes). I think if I had more confidence and was able to get enough weight on the front tire I could go through a lot of corners with no hands lol.

All I can say was the biggest difference was 40 to 36, going from 42 to 40 or 36 to 32 didn't feel much different. The biggest differences were perceived straight line stability (more stable feeling with narrow bars) and significantly more arm effort needed to climb out of the saddle (I used to do that for 10+ minutes at a time but don't really anymore, I think it's faster this way anyways). Sprinting is the same as far as I can tell. did go from a 120mm to 130mm stem and coulr probably go 140mm now. I also lowered the bars 1cm overall. Comfort has improved with narroer bars but hit diminishing/no returns beyond 36 with hoods inwards. This has been a long term experiment over about 1.5 years.

Lina
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by Lina

I wouldn't listen to Mr. Gib on anything related to bike handling. Or probably if you take the exact opposite of what he's saying you're pretty close to the truth.

spartacus
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by spartacus

Lina wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:42 pm
I wouldn't listen to Mr. Gib on anything related to bike handling. Or probably if you take the exact opposite of what he's saying you're pretty close to the truth.
Ha, at this point my narrow bars experient has caught a lot of flak and lots of people even in real life outright just tell me the opposite of what I've been experiencing so that's why I've decided to just shut up about it. Some people don't even believe the position is faster. If people want to ride around being parachutes, or think I can't turn, that's fine with me. Still makes me mad aero bikes come with 44cm bars tho! :noidea:

apr46
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by apr46

FWIW, i ride the enve aero 40cm bars with turned in levers. So the like 32cm as measured between the hoods. But i am not going to tell people what they feel or dont feel.

hannawald
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by hannawald

Is that really possible to maintaining similar reach while prolonging the stem and shortening the bar width? From what I remember when I looked at the topic: shortening bar width doesn´t have significant impact on reach. Do you have different experience?

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by TobinHatesYou

hannawald wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:43 pm
Is that really possible to maintaining similar reach while prolonging the stem and shortening the bar width? From what I remember when I looked at the topic: shortening bar width doesn´t have significant impact on reach. Do you have different experience?

My shoulders roll forward more readily and my upper back is more comfortable on narrower bars. Try planking with your arms close and far apart for example. Going to 38cm (77mm reach) bars with turned in levers has me on a 150mm stem now. Turning in the levers has the additional effect of shortening the distance from the BB to the horns/grips.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

apr46 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:58 pm
@Mr.Gib you are compounding 3 different concepts in a way that is leading you to an incorrect set of assumptions.
You disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.

But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.

Noteworthy that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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