Wider bars can give you more leverage and controlin cases when you need to turn the bars to steer, like low speeds on a MTB for example, or a rough surface with forces acting on the tire, IMO at road speeds turning with the bar is minimal and inputs from the rider mostly serve to make it harder for the bike to do what it wants to do which is go perfectly straight, or arc smoothly when you're leaning. If you're relying on the bars to balance side to side you're possibly also providing unwanted steering input IMOMr.Gib wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pmYou disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.
But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.
Noteworthy that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
Broken stupid bianchi handlebars on their stupid aero bike
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Your posture changes so the amount of reach and bar height you will want isn't the same. The measured reach changes a bit though if you go way narrower just based on geometry.
I didn't say you were all wrong! One of the challenges about bike discussions is that bikes are deceptively complicated and anyone (including me!) can quickly find themselves in trouble if they define the problem too narrowly. As for control, the role of feedback on precision movements is pretty important. Easier or harder to move, slower or faster to move might not actually result in better control from a rider's perspective.Mr.Gib wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pmYou disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.
But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.
Interesting that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
I am consistently beating the drum that as tires get wider and bars narrower trail numbers for bikes need to go down (and you get the added benefit of better cross wind stability too), but thats admitedly based on my own preference for really sharp handling road bikes.
Yeah i have shiny degree related to this subject, but dont take that as a sign of competence. It feels like a lifetime ago.
In my quest to look like Remco on a bike (pls ignore the missing 100w), I am ~2.5cm longer in reach and ~3cm lower than I was before. Aero hoods position has my hands about 6cm closer. Its wildly different, and the shoulders rolling forward is huge part of it.
remco used PRO carbon bars that have innegra carbon. this type of carbon will not crack but bend like steel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N-LiWRA7RQ
you get what you paid for.... .sometimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N-LiWRA7RQ
you get what you paid for.... .sometimes
Current Rides:
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2023 Tarmac SL7 Di2 9270
ex 2019 S-works SL6
ex 2018 Trek Madone SLR Disc
ex 2016 Giant TCRAdvanced Sl
ex 2012 Trek Madone7
- ultimobici
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You might want to listen to this guy. Has a little more experience than you or I, I suspect. https://youtu.be/PTDb1MqLYsY?t=562spartacus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:07 pmWider bars can give you more leverage and controlin cases when you need to turn the bars to steer, like low speeds on a MTB for example, or a rough surface with forces acting on the tire, IMO at road speeds turning with the bar is minimal and inputs from the rider mostly serve to make it harder for the bike to do what it wants to do which is go perfectly straight, or arc smoothly when you're leaning. If you're relying on the bars to balance side to side you're possibly also providing unwanted steering input IMOMr.Gib wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pmYou disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.
But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.
Noteworthy that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
I don't care what some guy from youtube says, there's no twitchiness or lack of stability for me. Maybe people that have bad fits, balance, and can't handle bike have issues but even he says he's running 38cm bars and honestly going from that to 36 is negligible so it sounds like he's just talking about people who suck anyways. Crashes in bike races happen ALL THE TIME and has nothing to do with handlebar width. (plus barely anyone is running 36cm or narrower bars anyway).ultimobici wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:11 pmYou might want to listen to this guy. Has a little more experience than you or I, I suspect. https://youtu.be/PTDb1MqLYsY?t=562spartacus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:07 pmWider bars can give you more leverage and controlin cases when you need to turn the bars to steer, like low speeds on a MTB for example, or a rough surface with forces acting on the tire, IMO at road speeds turning with the bar is minimal and inputs from the rider mostly serve to make it harder for the bike to do what it wants to do which is go perfectly straight, or arc smoothly when you're leaning. If you're relying on the bars to balance side to side you're possibly also providing unwanted steering input IMOMr.Gib wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pmYou disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.
But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.
Noteworthy that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
Actually.... you know what forget it. Narrow bars are twitchy and handle bad, nobody should use them. Stick to 44cm bars please
The guy on YouTube is far from isolated in his views - his position on the lack of stability as bars get narrow is not novel. The issue isn't when we are just riding along (we can all ride no hands), the problem is when we have to deal with something that calls more control of the front end. This is why flared bars can make a lot of sense. Aero on the hoods when you want to be, and control on the drops when you need it. And wouldn't you know it, such bars are becoming increasingly common at all levels of competition.spartacus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:35 pmI don't care what some guy from youtube says, there's no twitchiness or lack of stability for me. Maybe people that have bad fits, balance, and can't handle bike have issues but even he says he's running 38cm bars and honestly going from that to 36 is negligible so it sounds like he's just talking about people who suck anyways. Crashes in bike races happen ALL THE TIME and has nothing to do with handlebar width. (plus barely anyone is running 36cm or narrower bars anyway).
OTOH, if there is really no loss of control from narrower, why not get rid of the handlebars altogether and just hold the stem? That would be super aero (and lighter too!). It shouldn't be too hard to hook up some blips for shifting and a brake lever or two.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.
Again I'm done trying to convince anyone. People have it all figured out because "it seems like". wider = more control is a fallacy that doesn't take into account the system as a whole.Mr.Gib wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:31 pmThe guy on YouTube is far from isolated in his views - his position on the lack of stability as bars get narrow is not novel. The issue isn't when we are just riding along (we can all ride no hands), the problem is when we have to deal with something that calls more control of the front end. This is why flared bars can make a lot of sense. Aero on the hoods when you want to be, and control on the drops when you need it. And wouldn't you know it, such bars are becoming increasingly common at all levels of competition.spartacus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:35 pmI don't care what some guy from youtube says, there's no twitchiness or lack of stability for me. Maybe people that have bad fits, balance, and can't handle bike have issues but even he says he's running 38cm bars and honestly going from that to 36 is negligible so it sounds like he's just talking about people who suck anyways. Crashes in bike races happen ALL THE TIME and has nothing to do with handlebar width. (plus barely anyone is running 36cm or narrower bars anyway).
OTOH, if there is really no loss of control from narrower, why not get rid of the handlebars altogether and just hold the stem? That would be super aero (and lighter too!). It shouldn't be too hard to hook up some blips for shifting and a brake lever or two.
I ride 35cm bar without flare on my CX bike. Never have I felt a lack of stability nor do I think it feels twitchy. And I believe cross is the area where you need the most control of all road disciplines.
First road handlebar was 42cm, then 40cm, then 38cm, then 36 and 35cm currently. Biggest change for me was from 40 to 38cm. Took 2 or 3 rides and I was fully used to it. 38 to 36cm was a no brainer. Problem for me is riding a bike with 38cm or wider handlebars. They feel uncomfortable and unnaturrally wide to me now.
Interesting that Chris Opie mentions that narrower bars lead to less stability and he rides a 38cm at the same time... Maybe if you are a good bike handler then you can deal with narrow bars and vice versa?
First road handlebar was 42cm, then 40cm, then 38cm, then 36 and 35cm currently. Biggest change for me was from 40 to 38cm. Took 2 or 3 rides and I was fully used to it. 38 to 36cm was a no brainer. Problem for me is riding a bike with 38cm or wider handlebars. They feel uncomfortable and unnaturrally wide to me now.
Interesting that Chris Opie mentions that narrower bars lead to less stability and he rides a 38cm at the same time... Maybe if you are a good bike handler then you can deal with narrow bars and vice versa?
IMO the bottom line is that the bars aren't hard to handle period*
* provided you have a long stem, and good bike fit with proper weight distrobution
The other thing is of course things feel "different" until you get used to them, people try narrow bars without getting used to them or changing anything else then draw all kinds of conclusions.
In the video Chris Opie observes BOTH that bikes are more twitchy and riders less reactive. Presumably this would be because riders dont have confidence in their movements.
This goes back to the question of what good control actually means and how do you balance how fast the the steering is (twitchy) with the the right level of feedback (confidence). This is not an argument about the measurements of the bars in absolute terms and requires a look both at body position and steering geometry.
This goes back to the question of what good control actually means and how do you balance how fast the the steering is (twitchy) with the the right level of feedback (confidence). This is not an argument about the measurements of the bars in absolute terms and requires a look both at body position and steering geometry.
The funny part about all this is how nonsensical the arguments get. More twitchy, because less steering input moves the wheel more. Less control, because it takes more force to turn the wheel. Which is it?? lol I agree with the above that it is about position and overall geometry and the bars are but one part of the system.
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- ultimobici
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You are advocating for something that most of us agree is not a good idea in a bunch. You also wrote this:spartacus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:05 pmHa, at this point my narrow bars experient has caught a lot of flak and lots of people even in real life outright just tell me the opposite of what I've been experiencing so that's why I've decided to just shut up about it. Some people don't even believe the position is faster. If people want to ride around being parachutes, or think I can't turn, that's fine with me. Still makes me mad aero bikes come with 44cm bars tho!
If you're riding alone or with a few people you know, maybe ultra narrow bars are ok. In a large group of riders, not so much.I can't really comment on people with poor bike fit/balance etc... I don't ride with C groups or anything like that so who knows. I can't stand riding with sketchy people.