Broken stupid bianchi handlebars on their stupid aero bike

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spartacus
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by spartacus

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pm
apr46 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:58 pm
@Mr.Gib you are compounding 3 different concepts in a way that is leading you to an incorrect set of assumptions.
You disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.

But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.

Noteworthy that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
Wider bars can give you more leverage and controlin cases when you need to turn the bars to steer, like low speeds on a MTB for example, or a rough surface with forces acting on the tire, IMO at road speeds turning with the bar is minimal and inputs from the rider mostly serve to make it harder for the bike to do what it wants to do which is go perfectly straight, or arc smoothly when you're leaning. If you're relying on the bars to balance side to side you're possibly also providing unwanted steering input IMO

spartacus
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by spartacus

hannawald wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:43 pm
Is that really possible to maintaining similar reach while prolonging the stem and shortening the bar width? From what I remember when I looked at the topic: shortening bar width doesn´t have significant impact on reach. Do you have different experience?
Your posture changes so the amount of reach and bar height you will want isn't the same. The measured reach changes a bit though if you go way narrower just based on geometry.

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apr46
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by apr46

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pm
apr46 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:58 pm
@Mr.Gib you are compounding 3 different concepts in a way that is leading you to an incorrect set of assumptions.
You disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.

But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.

Interesting that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
I didn't say you were all wrong! One of the challenges about bike discussions is that bikes are deceptively complicated and anyone (including me!) can quickly find themselves in trouble if they define the problem too narrowly. As for control, the role of feedback on precision movements is pretty important. Easier or harder to move, slower or faster to move might not actually result in better control from a rider's perspective.

I am consistently beating the drum that as tires get wider and bars narrower trail numbers for bikes need to go down (and you get the added benefit of better cross wind stability too), but thats admitedly based on my own preference for really sharp handling road bikes.

Yeah i have shiny degree related to this subject, but dont take that as a sign of competence. It feels like a lifetime ago.

apr46
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by apr46

hannawald wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:43 pm
Is that really possible to maintaining similar reach while prolonging the stem and shortening the bar width? From what I remember when I looked at the topic: shortening bar width doesn´t have significant impact on reach. Do you have different experience?
In my quest to look like Remco on a bike (pls ignore the missing 100w), I am ~2.5cm longer in reach and ~3cm lower than I was before. Aero hoods position has my hands about 6cm closer. Its wildly different, and the shoulders rolling forward is huge part of it.

spartan
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by spartan

remco used PRO carbon bars that have innegra carbon. this type of carbon will not crack but bend like steel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N-LiWRA7RQ

you get what you paid for.... .sometimes
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CamW
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by CamW

It really isn't going to bend like steel. It'll still crack, it'll just be less likely to totally seperate into two pieces and have a higher impact strength.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

spartacus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:07 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pm
apr46 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:58 pm
@Mr.Gib you are compounding 3 different concepts in a way that is leading you to an incorrect set of assumptions.
You disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.

But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.

Noteworthy that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
Wider bars can give you more leverage and controlin cases when you need to turn the bars to steer, like low speeds on a MTB for example, or a rough surface with forces acting on the tire, IMO at road speeds turning with the bar is minimal and inputs from the rider mostly serve to make it harder for the bike to do what it wants to do which is go perfectly straight, or arc smoothly when you're leaning. If you're relying on the bars to balance side to side you're possibly also providing unwanted steering input IMO
You might want to listen to this guy. Has a little more experience than you or I, I suspect. https://youtu.be/PTDb1MqLYsY?t=562

spartacus
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by spartacus

ultimobici wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:11 pm
spartacus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:07 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:57 pm
apr46 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:58 pm
@Mr.Gib you are compounding 3 different concepts in a way that is leading you to an incorrect set of assumptions.
You disagree with my "asssumptions" that a longer lever arm supplies more torque at a given force? And you disagree with my "assumption" that wider bars give more control and aid balance? I can live with that.

But I appreciate the introduction of capsize and fall rate and the calculated example of steering input. You have a physics/engineering background? Good stuff.

Noteworthy that most companies still produce 40, 42, and 44 bars. It will be interesting to see how the market evolves.
Wider bars can give you more leverage and controlin cases when you need to turn the bars to steer, like low speeds on a MTB for example, or a rough surface with forces acting on the tire, IMO at road speeds turning with the bar is minimal and inputs from the rider mostly serve to make it harder for the bike to do what it wants to do which is go perfectly straight, or arc smoothly when you're leaning. If you're relying on the bars to balance side to side you're possibly also providing unwanted steering input IMO
You might want to listen to this guy. Has a little more experience than you or I, I suspect. https://youtu.be/PTDb1MqLYsY?t=562
I don't care what some guy from youtube says, there's no twitchiness or lack of stability for me. Maybe people that have bad fits, balance, and can't handle bike have issues but even he says he's running 38cm bars and honestly going from that to 36 is negligible so it sounds like he's just talking about people who suck anyways. Crashes in bike races happen ALL THE TIME and has nothing to do with handlebar width. (plus barely anyone is running 36cm or narrower bars anyway).

Actually.... you know what forget it. Narrow bars are twitchy and handle bad, nobody should use them. Stick to 44cm bars please :D

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

spartacus wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:35 pm
I don't care what some guy from youtube says, there's no twitchiness or lack of stability for me. Maybe people that have bad fits, balance, and can't handle bike have issues but even he says he's running 38cm bars and honestly going from that to 36 is negligible so it sounds like he's just talking about people who suck anyways. Crashes in bike races happen ALL THE TIME and has nothing to do with handlebar width. (plus barely anyone is running 36cm or narrower bars anyway).
The guy on YouTube is far from isolated in his views - his position on the lack of stability as bars get narrow is not novel. The issue isn't when we are just riding along (we can all ride no hands), the problem is when we have to deal with something that calls more control of the front end. This is why flared bars can make a lot of sense. Aero on the hoods when you want to be, and control on the drops when you need it. And wouldn't you know it, such bars are becoming increasingly common at all levels of competition.

OTOH, if there is really no loss of control from narrower, why not get rid of the handlebars altogether and just hold the stem? That would be super aero (and lighter too!). It shouldn't be too hard to hook up some blips for shifting and a brake lever or two. :P
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

spartacus
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by spartacus

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:31 pm
spartacus wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:35 pm
I don't care what some guy from youtube says, there's no twitchiness or lack of stability for me. Maybe people that have bad fits, balance, and can't handle bike have issues but even he says he's running 38cm bars and honestly going from that to 36 is negligible so it sounds like he's just talking about people who suck anyways. Crashes in bike races happen ALL THE TIME and has nothing to do with handlebar width. (plus barely anyone is running 36cm or narrower bars anyway).
The guy on YouTube is far from isolated in his views - his position on the lack of stability as bars get narrow is not novel. The issue isn't when we are just riding along (we can all ride no hands), the problem is when we have to deal with something that calls more control of the front end. This is why flared bars can make a lot of sense. Aero on the hoods when you want to be, and control on the drops when you need it. And wouldn't you know it, such bars are becoming increasingly common at all levels of competition.

OTOH, if there is really no loss of control from narrower, why not get rid of the handlebars altogether and just hold the stem? That would be super aero (and lighter too!). It shouldn't be too hard to hook up some blips for shifting and a brake lever or two. :P
Again I'm done trying to convince anyone. People have it all figured out because "it seems like". wider = more control is a fallacy that doesn't take into account the system as a whole.

Maddie
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by Maddie

I ride 35cm bar without flare on my CX bike. Never have I felt a lack of stability nor do I think it feels twitchy. And I believe cross is the area where you need the most control of all road disciplines.
First road handlebar was 42cm, then 40cm, then 38cm, then 36 and 35cm currently. Biggest change for me was from 40 to 38cm. Took 2 or 3 rides and I was fully used to it. 38 to 36cm was a no brainer. Problem for me is riding a bike with 38cm or wider handlebars. They feel uncomfortable and unnaturrally wide to me now.

Interesting that Chris Opie mentions that narrower bars lead to less stability and he rides a 38cm at the same time... Maybe if you are a good bike handler then you can deal with narrow bars and vice versa?

spartacus
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by spartacus

Maddie wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:52 pm

Interesting that Chris Opie mentions that narrower bars lead to less stability and he rides a 38cm at the same time... Maybe if you are a good bike handler then you can deal with narrow bars and vice versa?
IMO the bottom line is that the bars aren't hard to handle period*

* provided you have a long stem, and good bike fit with proper weight distrobution

The other thing is of course things feel "different" until you get used to them, people try narrow bars without getting used to them or changing anything else then draw all kinds of conclusions.

apr46
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by apr46

In the video Chris Opie observes BOTH that bikes are more twitchy and riders less reactive. Presumably this would be because riders dont have confidence in their movements.

This goes back to the question of what good control actually means and how do you balance how fast the the steering is (twitchy) with the the right level of feedback (confidence). This is not an argument about the measurements of the bars in absolute terms and requires a look both at body position and steering geometry.

spartacus
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by spartacus

The funny part about all this is how nonsensical the arguments get. More twitchy, because less steering input moves the wheel more. Less control, because it takes more force to turn the wheel. Which is it?? lol I agree with the above that it is about position and overall geometry and the bars are but one part of the system.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

spartacus wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:05 pm
Lina wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:42 pm
I wouldn't listen to Mr. Gib on anything related to bike handling. Or probably if you take the exact opposite of what he's saying you're pretty close to the truth.
Ha, at this point my narrow bars experient has caught a lot of flak and lots of people even in real life outright just tell me the opposite of what I've been experiencing so that's why I've decided to just shut up about it. Some people don't even believe the position is faster. If people want to ride around being parachutes, or think I can't turn, that's fine with me. Still makes me mad aero bikes come with 44cm bars tho! :noidea:
You are advocating for something that most of us agree is not a good idea in a bunch. You also wrote this:
I can't really comment on people with poor bike fit/balance etc... I don't ride with C groups or anything like that so who knows. I can't stand riding with sketchy people.
If you're riding alone or with a few people you know, maybe ultra narrow bars are ok. In a large group of riders, not so much.

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