Who do you trust?

[MilesG813]

; the guy on the rim brake bike was using straight CF rim with no AL brake track, and no brake pad ever made for a full CF rim ever stopped a bike great.

Can you even buy new carbon fiber wheels with an aluminum brake track? While by no means defending GCN I do not think that is as offensive as you make it out to be, most people on modern rim brake bikes will have full carbon wheels.

Yep, HED Jet wheels all have alloy brake tracks.

Interesting although the weight at that price would make me want a full carbon wheel anyways since their 40mm is 1598 grams.

[ghostinthemachine]

Again, is this a temporary situation caused by the economic chaos brought on by the pandemic, or has it always been the case?

It's always been the case where i am, we've got main dealers for most of the major brands within 150km and none of them have a realistic demo "fleet". If you want to test (for example) an Aethos or maybe a SL7 S-works in a 52, they'll offer you their SL6 Comp in a 56. This is fairly typical.

TBH, if anything it's got better during the pandemic as two of our biggest "local" shops have expanded, one is now a large brand store and has doubled in size and the other is now connected in some way to another major manufacturer. (i think the importer has bought a share of the shop, i know that they have been on opposite ends of the same industrial site for a few years, some sort of joint venture was bound to happen eventually!)

[CampagYOLO]

; the guy on the rim brake bike was using straight CF rim with no AL brake track, and no brake pad ever made for a full CF rim ever stopped a bike great.

Can you even buy new carbon fiber wheels with an aluminum brake track? While by no means defending GCN I do not think that is as offensive as you make it out to be, most people on modern rim brake bikes will have full carbon wheels.

Yep, HED Jet wheels all have alloy brake tracks.

Interesting although the weight at that price would make me want a full carbon wheel anyways since their 40mm is 1598 grams.

That was always the trade off with rim brake carbon wheels, you had to pick between the light weight of full carbon or good braking in all conditions with an alloy brake track.

It can't be argued that disc brakes don't have to worry about this this dilemma.

[ichobi]

In bangkok where i live test fleet is really a distributor commitment (or lack thereof). Some distri are really good. Cervelo importer here have demo fleet for most if not all the r / s ranges. They even had some demo tt bikes.

Some other brands have none at all. They also said to me test fleet rarely if ever sponsored by the brand themselves. I.e these distri pay out of their pocket to offer test bike. Demo/ test bikes availability is abysmal in this industry. If u live elsewhere outside the capital, good luck booking a flight and a hotel to just have a test ride. (If the brand you want have one).

However we have a vibrant second hand market so it’s not too difficult to sample out a range of frameset for a period of time this seems to be how most enthusiast here do their own test ride. We can be quite sure that for big brands frame we aren’t losing out much if we put it up for sale in second hand markets.

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[stevesbike]

Can you even buy new carbon fiber wheels with an aluminum brake track? While by no means defending GCN I do not think that is as offensive as you make it out to be, most people on modern rim brake bikes will have full carbon wheels.

Yep, HED Jet wheels all have alloy brake tracks.

Interesting although the weight at that price would make me want a full carbon wheel anyways since their 40mm is 1598 grams.

That was always the trade off with rim brake carbon wheels, you had to pick between the light weight of full carbon or good braking in all conditions with an alloy brake track.

It can't be argued that disc brakes don't have to worry about this this dilemma.

This claim about carbon rim braking that's popular on forums is a good example of why not to trust forum opinions. I doubt most of the people criticizing carbon brake track performance have tested very many contemporary carbon rim wheels. The performance of many is on par with disc brakes - the GCN sort of tests make good theater but the testing doesn't reflect real-world braking. Even at the Tour when there were some rim brakes (Ineos) vs disc brakes, there were no competitive advantages with disc brakes - and no amateur should be pushing their braking performance in the rain like that. I have multiple sets of carbon brake track wheels (and disc for gravel) and have raced them at events like HR Alps (including descending Alpe D'huez etc) and have never felt anything lacking in braking performance. Most of them have superior stopping power to my HED Ardennes alloy track. The advent of disc brakes on road bikes was largely driven by marketing and the need for SRAM to gain marketshare (it was part of their explicit market strategy), not the needs of typical cyclists (I've also ridden with more than one pro who would revert to rim brakes if they had a choice).

[CampagYOLO]

Yep, HED Jet wheels all have alloy brake tracks.

Interesting although the weight at that price would make me want a full carbon wheel anyways since their 40mm is 1598 grams.

That was always the trade off with rim brake carbon wheels, you had to pick between the light weight of full carbon or good braking in all conditions with an alloy brake track.

It can't be argued that disc brakes don't have to worry about this this dilemma.

This claim about carbon rim braking that's popular on forums is a good example of why not to trust forum opinions. I doubt most of the people criticizing carbon brake track performance have tested very many contemporary carbon rim wheels. The performance of many is on par with disc brakes - the GCN sort of tests make good theater but the testing doesn't reflect real-world braking. Even at the Tour when there were some rim brakes (Ineos) vs disc brakes, there were no competitive advantages with disc brakes - and no amateur should be pushing their braking performance in the rain like that. I have multiple sets of carbon brake track wheels (and disc for gravel) and have raced them at events like HR Alps (including descending Alpe D'huez etc) and have never felt anything lacking in braking performance. Most of them have superior stopping power to my HED Ardennes alloy track. The advent of disc brakes on road bikes was largely driven by marketing and the need for SRAM to gain marketshare (it was part of their explicit market strategy), not the needs of typical cyclists (I've also ridden with more than one pro who would revert to rim brakes if they had a choice).

I live somewhere where it rains a lot and there can be a lot of traffic which requires reacting to, I've personally had far too many dicey moments with carbon brake tracks in the wet, it never happens anymore when out in the rain on disc brakes.

Sure, in the dry they're fine, I've also descended Alpe D'huez with no problems. Also if I was riding on closed roads like the pros do where you're much less likely to suddenly need to stop then I'd also be happy to remain on carbon rim brakes.

BTW this thread wasn't about disc vs rim so I'm not going to post anymore about this matter.

[stevesbike]

Interesting although the weight at that price would make me want a full carbon wheel anyways since their 40mm is 1598 grams.

That was always the trade off with rim brake carbon wheels, you had to pick between the light weight of full carbon or good braking in all conditions with an alloy brake track.

It can't be argued that disc brakes don't have to worry about this this dilemma.

This claim about carbon rim braking that's popular on forums is a good example of why not to trust forum opinions. I doubt most of the people criticizing carbon brake track performance have tested very many contemporary carbon rim wheels. The performance of many is on par with disc brakes - the GCN sort of tests make good theater but the testing doesn't reflect real-world braking. Even at the Tour when there were some rim brakes (Ineos) vs disc brakes, there were no competitive advantages with disc brakes - and no amateur should be pushing their braking performance in the rain like that. I have multiple sets of carbon brake track wheels (and disc for gravel) and have raced them at events like HR Alps (including descending Alpe D'huez etc) and have never felt anything lacking in braking performance. Most of them have superior stopping power to my HED Ardennes alloy track. The advent of disc brakes on road bikes was largely driven by marketing and the need for SRAM to gain marketshare (it was part of their explicit market strategy), not the needs of typical cyclists (I've also ridden with more than one pro who would revert to rim brakes if they had a choice).

I live somewhere where it rains a lot and there can be a lot of traffic which requires reacting to, I've personally had far too many dicey moments with carbon brake tracks in the wet, it never happens anymore when out in the rain on disc brakes.

Sure, in the dry they're fine, I've also descended Alpe D'huez with no problems. Also if I was riding on closed roads like the pros do where you're much less likely to suddenly need to stop then I'd also be happy to remain on carbon rim brakes.

BTW this thread wasn't about disc vs rim so I'm not going to post anymore about this matter.

Yes, my intention wasn't to derail the thread, but to point to an example where forum opinion isn't trustworthy.

[wheelsONfire]

Isn't marketing more or less always biased?
Small differences are lifted as evolution and sometime revolution.
Not sure some of the progress really is that much of a big deal riding a current bike or getting a new one.
It seems at times, we see what we want to see more than what it really is.
It's like being drunk on a feeling, which ofcourse evaporate in a short time.
Should you feed that beast faster and faster or wake up?

[AJS914]

Yes, my intention wasn't to derail the thread, but to point to an example where forum opinion isn't trustworthy.

The forum's opinion is perfectly trustworthy. You just have to do a search and read 100 opinions. 90 will say that stopping is just fine on carbon brake tracks. 8 will have some caveat that is probably mostly true. 2 nut jobs will have opinions that don't agree with most people.

That's the way I look for information. Search google, youtube, and then check in with the brain trust of the forum for confirmation by more than one poster.

[ichobi]

Yes, my intention wasn't to derail the thread, but to point to an example where forum opinion isn't trustworthy.

The forum's opinion is perfectly trustworthy. You just have to do a search and read 100 opinions. 90 will say that stopping is just fine on carbon brake tracks. 8 will have some caveat that is probably mostly true. 2 nut jobs will have opinions that don't agree with most people.

That's the way I look for information. Search google, youtube, and then check in with the brain trust of the forum for confirmation by more than one poster.

Hard agreed with above. Find pattern in people’s opinion and triangulate them - you will get the right information most of the time. The pool of quality cycling forums that’s active and technical are sufficient. Weightweenies, slowtwitch, trainerroad - these are often more than enough to find what i am looking for with sufficient room for serendipitous information that i did not expect to find but proved extremely useful. Such is the strength of hive-minds as opposed to monolithic publications. Only here we are exempt from the curse of algorithm - which make youtube comment a real cesspool sometimes due to the echo chamber effect not to mention toxic diatribes.


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[C36]

Just happen to watch Peaktorque last video and a good illustration of why presenting things “scientifically” it’s not a shield against poor information.
While using a CDA “sensor” is interesting and fairly new, no proper Engineer would conduct the test he conducted comparing apple and bananas and say “are rim brake faster?” just cause among the many bikes differences one has rim brakes and another discs.

But reading though the comments only 2 or 3 raise the fact that he is comparing completely different setups making any conclusions meaningless, the rest seems impressed by this shinny coating of science.

[wheelsONfire]

Strangely, it's way more easy to test ride an expensive motorcycle.
I used to call and book test rides quite often back when i was riding.

I imagine that is at least partly owing to the fact that there aren't really "sizes" when it comes to motorcyles? A dealer only have to have one sample on hand for anyone to test ride, vs. bikes where you'd need at least 3 or 4 to cover the size range? The shops near me, usually will have at least 1 bike on hand, of the high end model, in their "A" brand to show off. But only 1. If it happens to fit you, great, take it for a test ride. If not, you're SOL.

Yes, imagine you like to try an S5 in size 56. You get a 54 with much lower stack and shorter. You ride it and you might not even ride any other similar bike.
So what you notice is that this S5 rides not at all like your current bike. What do you base the experience on later on, esp if you feel you really like to have an S5 for reasons not based on raw experience?

Maybe if things would be good, you should try a correct size with correct (more or less) stack and reach.
Maybe several bikes like S5, Madone, Maybe Propel. Atleast three bikes.
How can we otherwise get a clear idea of how these later crop of bikes compare?
We plunge a heap of money into a bike based on opinions from others which again might have been in a situation, they bought a bike and tell the all,i love it.(Rather typical to convince oneself and others).
So why do they sell it 1 or 2 years later?
2 seasons is tops one year of actual cycling and for most, they might need 3 years.
Everyone who buys a new bike want to feel that this is it! Wow, it's a strong sense but it's not based on any experience and real A-B test of several competitors.
I think this is so very very common.
I know i have done this and have to admit that what is the truth, is a hard pill to swallow and that is why some bikes end up sold or shelved.

[Noctiluxx]

Also what I find at least interesting to read: Gran Fondo Cycling.

True but they easily have the best photography.

[robertbb]

Also what I find at least interesting to read: Gran Fondo Cycling.

True but they easily have the best photography.

The Radavist has the best photography. Not really a Weight Weenie crowd but their photo albums are legendary.

[Andrew69]

; the guy on the rim brake bike was using straight CF rim with no AL brake track, and no brake pad ever made for a full CF rim ever stopped a bike great.

Can you even buy new carbon fiber wheels with an aluminum brake track? While by no means defending GCN I do not think that is as offensive as you make it out to be, most people on modern rim brake bikes will have full carbon wheels.

Yep, HED Jet wheels all have alloy brake tracks.

I sold my Hed Jets several years ago now, but unless Hed have changed the way they build the wheels, I would call that wheel an alloy wheel with a carbon fairing, as the carbon is not structural in any way