Who do you trust?

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

Ytse wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:47 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:41 pm
wilwil wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:27 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:20 am

They have these places called "bike shops", where you can try, test, and evaluate bikes, wheels, and groupsets.
What bike shops do you go to?
I go to a lot of bike shops, depending on what bike I'm interested in.
You are a lucky person living in a country / area where local bike shops are stuffed with test / demo units and let you try all of them. Unfortunately, where I live (Central Europe), bike shops tend to have limited in-stock availability, especially of the high-end models, which are usually only available on order.
That's not just a temporary situation caused by the economic chaos brought on by the pandemic?

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
Konsi
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:34 pm
Location: Genève
Contact:

by Konsi

Ytse wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:47 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:41 pm
wilwil wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:27 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:20 am

They have these places called "bike shops", where you can try, test, and evaluate bikes, wheels, and groupsets.
What bike shops do you go to?
I go to a lot of bike shops, depending on what bike I'm interested in.
You are a lucky person living in a country / area where local bike shops are stuffed with test / demo units and let you try all of them. Unfortunately, where I live (Central Europe), bike shops tend to have limited in-stock availability, especially of the high-end models, which are usually only available on order.
Look for a bike shop who also rents bikes :) The one where I help out does, so it is normally not an issue to test ride most of the models for a weekend, they even have a few Sartos and Colnagos to rent/try. If you are a regular, the bike is free for the weekend, otherwise you might have to pay the rent, and would get it taken into account when buying a bike.

More general to the topic, I trust James, Ronan, and the rest of the ex-CT crew, DC Rainmaker, GPLama, and some friends who work in the industry.

otnemem
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:55 am

by otnemem

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:49 am
Verkuijl took his Hypers to one of the top wheelbuilders in his area for a second-opinion.
That proves exactly nothing.
- How did he source the wheels?
- How do you know that he didn't act on his bias (as he already has a conflict of interest)?
- How do you know that wheelbuilder didn't have a conflict of interest and/or bias?

Trust science. Data, science/evidence-based info. Trust your own education and never stop bettering it. Reading some answers here I would advise many people to start with the scientific method, investigation methodology and its checks and balances.
If, after this, one still trusts youtubers who get merch amd equipment for free, start again. Otherwise one might as well just take manufacturers ad copy as gospel.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:56 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:49 am
Verkuijl took his Hypers to one of the top wheelbuilders in his area for a second-opinion.
That proves exactly nothing.
- How did he source the wheels?
- How do you know that he didn't act on his bias (as he already has a conflict of interest)?
- How do you know that wheelbuilder didn't have a conflict of interest and/or bias?

Trust science. Data, science/evidence-based info. Trust your own education and never stop bettering it. Reading some answers here I would advise many people to start with the scientific method, investigation methodology and its checks and balances.
If, after this, one still trusts youtubers who get merch amd equipment for free, start again. Otherwise one might as well just take manufacturers ad copy as gospel.

There's healthy and unhealthy levels of skepticism. The wheelbuilder said he wouldn't buy Hypers in the end.

Everything you just typed out can be applied to everyone mentioned in this thread. Nobody here is trusting any one source, but collecting points from (almost) all of the above.

AW84
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:04 am

by AW84

I definitely, 100% trust marketing departments.

ichobi
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

One thing that i sense most people don’t know is that GCN has a clear policy that they never do product review (from the very start) - and they are very clear about the definition of what a review is. In their case, they don’t provide neither subjective nor objective opinion on a product.

This is certainly to get the business running so as to be able to accept sponsor from all of the brands. It’s a sponsor safe channel.

https://dotcom-globalcyclingnetwork-ps1 ... /editorial

What they do instead is use sponsored products to create videos. Sponsor buy the views and the exposure rather than explicit critique on their product.

So it’s a bit misleading to say gcn reviews are biased given they don’t do traditional reviews. There videos are certainly in favour of the sponsor given most if not all of the videos are sponsored. Nothing wrong with that if you know what these videos are - ads, as its said on all of the thumbnails.

They make plenty of cool and useful videos. You just need to see the content for what they are rather than for what they are not. I hate the toxicity people and some youtuber throw at gcn. They provide access point for people into the world of road cycling without feeling too intimidated.

I do applause them for the transparency, which I think many youtubers could learn a thing or two from them. While i am not their audience, they play an important role in our sport.

Do i think they could do more? Certainly. Pc industry and channels like Hardwarenexus and Linustechtips show that you can create a great media business while being objective and provide constructive critique to all the products they get their hands on. They call out the bs from manufacturer all the time. They have no qualm dropping sponsor if deemed dishonest or do wrong to the consumer. This is where GCN really falls short and could do a lot better than just being “brand safe”.
Last edited by ichobi on Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

nycxandy
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:16 pm

by nycxandy

Wholeheartedly agree with ichobi.

Ytse
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 11:53 am

by Ytse

ichobi wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:12 am
One thing that i sense most people don’t know is that GCN has a clear policy that they never do product review (from the very start) - and they are very clear about the definition of what a review is. In their case, they don’t provide neither subjective nor objective opinion on a product.

This is certainly to get the business running so as to be able to accept sponsor from all of the brands. It’s a sponsor safe channel.

https://dotcom-globalcyclingnetwork-ps1 ... /editorial

What they do instead is use sponsored products to create videos. Sponsor buy the views and the exposure rather than explicit critique on their product.

So it’s a bit misleading to say gcn reviews are biased given they don’t do traditional reviews. There videos are certainly in favour of the sponsor given most if not all of the videos are sponsored. Nothing wrong with that if you know what these videos are - ads, as its said on all of the thumbnails.

They make plenty of cool and useful videos. You just need to see the content for what they are rather than for what they are not. I hate the toxicity people and some youtuber throw at gcn. They provide access point for people into the world of road cycling without feeling too intimidated.

I do applause them for the transparency, which I think many youtubers could learn a thing or two from them. While i am not their audience, they play an important role in our sport.

Do i think they could do more? Certainly. Pc industry and channels like Hardwarenexus and Linustechtips show that you can create a great media business while being objective and provide constructive critique to all the products they get their hands on. They call out the bs from manufacturer all the time. They have no qualm dropping sponsor of deemed dishonest or do wrong to the consumer. This is where GCN really fall short and could do a lot better than just being “brand safe”.
Very good point.
2020 Scott Addict RC / 2021 Trek Emonda SLR / 2023 Specialized Tarmac SL8

User avatar
tarmackev
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm

by tarmackev

Steve Curtis wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:16 pm
I try things for myself. Simple as that really.
I've been though a vast amount of frames, components, clothing - everything.
Even the country you live in changes the bias towards different products and brands.
this!.. I bought my first decent road bike in 91, ive ridden very little that I'd call bad. A little common sense helps as well. Don't expect anything to make more than a tiny percentage of difference and even the best items brake at times.

The main place I trust is this site and its members.
Last edited by tarmackev on Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

ichobi wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:12 am
One thing that i sense most people don’t know is that GCN has a clear policy that they never do product review (from the very start) - and they are very clear about the definition of what a review is. In their case, they don’t provide neither subjective nor objective opinion on a product.

This is certainly to get the business running so as to be able to accept sponsor from all of the brands. It’s a sponsor safe channel.

https://dotcom-globalcyclingnetwork-ps1 ... /editorial

What they do instead is use sponsored products to create videos. Sponsor buy the views and the exposure rather than explicit critique on their product.

So it’s a bit misleading to say gcn reviews are biased given they don’t do traditional reviews. There videos are certainly in favour of the sponsor given most if not all of the videos are sponsored. Nothing wrong with that if you know what these videos are - ads, as its said on all of the thumbnails.

They make plenty of cool and useful videos. You just need to see the content for what they are rather than for what they are not. I hate the toxicity people and some youtuber throw at gcn. They provide access point for people into the world of road cycling without feeling too intimidated.

I do applause them for the transparency, which I think many youtubers could learn a thing or two from them. While i am not their audience, they play an important role in our sport.

Do i think they could do more? Certainly. Pc industry and channels like Hardwarenexus and Linustechtips show that you can create a great media business while being objective and provide constructive critique to all the products they get their hands on. They call out the bs from manufacturer all the time. They have no qualm dropping sponsor if deemed dishonest or do wrong to the consumer. This is where GCN really falls short and could do a lot better than just being “brand safe”.
They may have a policy, but I don't see what it prevents relative to the topic, nor prevent people from taking their claims as trustable advises.

Are they trustworthy talking about equipment? not one fraction of a second on any of their videos, they are a public relation extension who get money to showcase equipment that the less knowledgeable will trust (mucoff being the prime example). Outside this, when covering general topics, debating on do and don't... they are informative but too often it opens the door to showcase products regardless how good they are, and I don't recall those videos being flagged as "contain ad" like the ones that are purely an ad (like on the Willier GT SLR where the "AD" is clearly stamped everywhere).

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:29 pm
Ytse wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:47 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:41 pm
wilwil wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:27 pm


What bike shops do you go to?
I go to a lot of bike shops, depending on what bike I'm interested in.
You are a lucky person living in a country / area where local bike shops are stuffed with test / demo units and let you try all of them. Unfortunately, where I live (Central Europe), bike shops tend to have limited in-stock availability, especially of the high-end models, which are usually only available on order.
That's not just a temporary situation caused by the economic chaos brought on by the pandemic?
I've never seen a road bike above 105 level in a bike shop within a 1000 km of me. It's ordered for that one or two customers a year they get for them. Makes no sense keeping them in stock when you don't know what size you need and you definitely can't stock every size. So it's all ordering blind for me, be it from a bike shop or online. On MTB side I'd have more test options but even there the top tier options are quite rare.

otnemem
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:55 am

by otnemem

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:03 am
otnemem wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:56 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:49 am
Verkuijl took his Hypers to one of the top wheelbuilders in his area for a second-opinion.
That proves exactly nothing.
- How did he source the wheels?
- How do you know that he didn't act on his bias (as he already has a conflict of interest)?
- How do you know that wheelbuilder didn't have a conflict of interest and/or bias?

Trust science. Data, science/evidence-based info. Trust your own education and never stop bettering it. Reading some answers here I would advise many people to start with the scientific method, investigation methodology and its checks and balances.
If, after this, one still trusts youtubers who get merch amd equipment for free, start again. Otherwise one might as well just take manufacturers ad copy as gospel.

There's healthy and unhealthy levels of skepticism. The wheelbuilder said he wouldn't buy Hypers in the end.

Everything you just typed out can be applied to everyone mentioned in this thread. Nobody here is trusting any one source, but collecting points from (almost) all of the above.
I didn't watch his video. I was making a general point.
In the end, didn't he continue to race the wheelset? i.e. the same wheelset he took to Haute Route? So it had no bearing on his choice and the outcome of the content he put up wasn't affected - he kept using the gear he was paid to use. Same for his fueling strategies although I doubt that part passed by unnoticed to anyone :lol:

I disagree. There's justified skepticism and there's baseless allegations. If I have doubts it's not because of a random gut feeling but because of my knowledge and experience.
Most of the people rightfully praised here rely on the quality of their assessments for continued work. The moment they're caught, that's it. Others rely (sometimes heavily) on sponsors and I have yet to find a single one of those who's worth my time for anything other than entertainment. I don't see how you can paint both groups with the same wide brush.

We have at our disposal the largest ever data and body of knowledge accrued over the years. There are also unparalleled ways of measuring most of the things that we discuss here. There's no reason to give opinions, feelings and belief much if any space.

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Lina wrote: I've never seen a road bike above 105 level in a bike shop within a 1000 km of me. It's ordered for that one or two customers a year they get for them. Makes no sense keeping them in stock when you don't know what size you need and you definitely can't stock every size. So it's all ordering blind for me, be it from a bike shop or online. On MTB side I'd have more test options but even there the top tier options are quite rare.

I test rode most of the bikes I purchased in the last 20 years (France, Spain, Colombia, Houston in the US), mostly not in the exact spec I wanted but still… but it’s getting way more difficult with large resellers or brand shops where you don’t have a real “business owner” and we went to a circle that made it more difficult : people asked less, shops lost the habit, less stocks, more online purchase, stores do not have to fight to sell high end products, less competition… it took a mix of relationship and built a lot on providing them feedback they could use while selling.

For equipment it may be easier, I did test ride few wheels over a weekend in autumn without ultimately purchasing any (not to my liking). Now, they were shop wheels, preowned wheels or even other customers wheels.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:40 pm
I didn't watch his video. I was making a general point.
In the end, didn't he continue to race the wheelset? i.e. the same wheelset he took to Haute Route? So it had no bearing on his choice and the outcome of the content he put up wasn't affected - he kept using the gear he was paid to use. Same for his fueling strategies although I doubt that part passed by unnoticed to anyone :lol:

Nobody is ignoring the fact that Joe is sending out Hypers to people like Jasper, or that Seka sent an Exceed RDC to Cam.

And in the end I consistently recommend against the Winspace Hypers because they aren’t wide enough, only achieve reasonable lightness with a reduced number of carbon spokes and use proprietary hubs.

Who Jasper chooses to shill for doesn’t matter in the end because I was more interested if Marc from Wheel-Tec came to the same conclusions I did. Perhaps he shouldn’t even have hit publish on that video.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Lina wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:27 pm

I've never seen a road bike above 105 level in a bike shop within a 1000 km of me. It's ordered for that one or two customers a year they get for them. Makes no sense keeping them in stock when you don't know what size you need and you definitely can't stock every size. So it's all ordering blind for me, be it from a bike shop or online. On MTB side I'd have more test options but even there the top tier options are quite rare.

I’m not surprised by this. Geographically speaking, most of my country (USA) is not within reasonable driving distance of a bike shop that would stock high-end bikes. People in the middle of Nebraska or Wyoming aren’t ever going to spend US$4000 on a bike, let alone $13000.

But local to me in the Bay Area you can test ride pretty much anything if you wanted…I just don’t think many people actually gain much insight from a test ride. I didn’t test ride any of my last four bikes. One would have been impossible since it was custom. Perhaps I am just insensitive to small differences in stiffness and offset/trail, but the most important numbers for me are stack/reach/front-center.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply