Who do you trust?

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wooger
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:32 am

by wooger

tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:20 am
Ytse wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 4:16 pm
When it comes to buying a new bike, frame, wheels, groupset or basically anything cycling related, most of us are flying blind, as there is no way to try, test and evaulate them.
They have these places called "bike shops", where you can try, test, and evaluate bikes, wheels, and groupsets.
No bike shops even vaguely near me that have stock of anything in my size, or let you do a test ride of anything at all. Some used to let you test ride, with deposits paid etc. 5+ years ago if they had something in stock, but it was a real hassle.

Let alone give you enough time to meaningfully evaluate anything.

by Weenie


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Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:13 pm
Lina wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:27 pm

I've never seen a road bike above 105 level in a bike shop within a 1000 km of me. It's ordered for that one or two customers a year they get for them. Makes no sense keeping them in stock when you don't know what size you need and you definitely can't stock every size. So it's all ordering blind for me, be it from a bike shop or online. On MTB side I'd have more test options but even there the top tier options are quite rare.

I’m not surprised by this. Geographically speaking, most of my country (USA) is not within reasonable driving distance of a bike shop that would stock high-end bikes. People in the middle of Nebraska or Wyoming aren’t ever going to spend US$4000 on a bike, let alone $13000.

But local to me in the Bay Area you can test ride pretty much anything if you wanted…I just don’t think many people actually gain much insight from a test ride. I didn’t test ride any of my last four bikes. One would have been impossible since it was custom. Perhaps I am just insensitive to small differences in stiffness and offset/trail, but the most important numbers for me are stack/reach/front-center.
I'm not really even complaining about the lack of test riding options. Just stating that it can be close to impossible to find a bike for test ride unless you happen to live in a wealthy area with a lot of cyclists. I buy all of my bikes based on geometry numbers. And I've never had a case where one didn't work for me. It's a rigid road bike, there isn't much difference in terms of riding them that you can't obviously see from the geometry chart already. On a suspension MTB I could see someone wanting to test ride a bike to see how the suspension works. But I guess that with some experience on components and geometry it'd be quite easy to have a pretty good idea how something is going to act in certain terrain. Then again my MTB experience is limited to handful of rides per year on loaned bikes so what do I know about that.

tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

Lina wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:27 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:29 pm
Ytse wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:47 pm
tomato wrote:
Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:41 pm


I go to a lot of bike shops, depending on what bike I'm interested in.
You are a lucky person living in a country / area where local bike shops are stuffed with test / demo units and let you try all of them. Unfortunately, where I live (Central Europe), bike shops tend to have limited in-stock availability, especially of the high-end models, which are usually only available on order.
That's not just a temporary situation caused by the economic chaos brought on by the pandemic?
I've never seen a road bike above 105 level in a bike shop within a 1000 km of me. It's ordered for that one or two customers a year they get for them. Makes no sense keeping them in stock when you don't know what size you need and you definitely can't stock every size. So it's all ordering blind for me, be it from a bike shop or online. On MTB side I'd have more test options but even there the top tier options are quite rare.
Where are you?

tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:13 pm
I’m not surprised by this. Geographically speaking, most of my country (USA) is not within reasonable driving distance of a bike shop that would stock high-end bikes.
But, the vast majority of the population lives within easy driving distance of a major metropolitan area.
TobinHatesYou wrote:People in the middle of Nebraska or Wyoming aren’t ever going to spend US$4000 on a bike, let alone $13000.
Wyoming and Nebraska are not backwater wastelands. There are many cyclists in Wyoming and Nebraska that would laugh at the notion that they'd never spend $4000 on a bike.

MilesG813
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu May 19, 2022 7:17 pm

by MilesG813

tomato wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:16 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:13 pm
I’m not surprised by this. Geographically speaking, most of my country (USA) is not within reasonable driving distance of a bike shop that would stock high-end bikes.
But, the vast majority of the population lives within easy driving distance of a major metropolitan area.
TobinHatesYou wrote:People in the middle of Nebraska or Wyoming aren’t ever going to spend US$4000 on a bike, let alone $13000.
Wyoming and Nebraska are not backwater wastelands. There are many cyclists in Wyoming and Nebraska that would laugh at the notion that they'd never spend $4000 on a bike.
I do not know what part of the U.S. you live in but I live in Tampa, Florida and you cannot test ride an SL7, Madone or Dogma F anywhere nearby. Sure if I want to go try a Crux or some other mid tier bike they MAY have one in stock in my size but definitely not a top tier bike as others have mentioned. My specialized store cannot even be bothered to call you back when trying to order a Sworks SL7 and the wait on anything Trek is ridiculous. So what major metropolitan area do you live in where top end bikes are always kept in stock, in all sizes, and ready to be test ridden at your liesure?
2022 Specialized S-Works SL7 I Ultegra R8170 I Princeton Carbonworks 6560
2012 Cannondale CAAD 10 I 105 R5700 I Zipp 404s

tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

MilesG813 wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:54 pm
I do not know what part of the U.S. you live in but I live in Tampa, Florida and you cannot test ride an SL7, Madone or Dogma F anywhere nearby. Sure if I want to go try a Crux or some other mid tier bike they MAY have one in stock in my size but definitely not a top tier bike as others have mentioned. My specialized store cannot even be bothered to call you back when trying to order a Sworks SL7 and the wait on anything Trek is ridiculous.
Again, is this a temporary situation caused by the economic chaos brought on by the pandemic, or has it always been the case?
So what major metropolitan area do you live in where top end bikes are always kept in stock, in all sizes, and ready to be test ridden at your leisure?
I didn't say top end bikes were always kept in stock at every shop, ready to ridden at a moments notice. Sometimes you have to put a little effort into finding what you want, or you have to break the process down into steps. For instance, you can easily evalute a frame even if it has the wrong groupset installed on it, or you can compare groupsets installed on frames you're not interested in. (Ans: Denver/Boulder)

otnemem
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:55 am

by otnemem

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:00 pm
Nobody is ignoring the fact that Joe is sending out Hypers to people like Jasper, or that Seka sent an Exceed RDC to Cam.

And in the end I consistently recommend against the Winspace Hypers because they aren’t wide enough, only achieve reasonable lightness with a reduced number of carbon spokes and use proprietary hubs.

Who Jasper chooses to shill for doesn’t matter in the end because I was more interested if Marc from Wheel-Tec came to the same conclusions I did. Perhaps he shouldn’t even have hit publish on that video.
It doesn't matter to me or you, but his fans who might be more impressionable will focus on the fact that he "chose" to ride his A race on all Winspace kit - which is fair enough on his part, I'm sure he has bills to pay, but immediately disqualifies him as possibly having unbiased content.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

I have never been able to test ride any expensive bike either. I was offered to test ride a Madone around a parking lot. I was one size to small on top of that.
Perhaps if i went to Germany, like Jedi sports. So the idea of testing a super expensive Pinarello head to head with something in same price range would be almost impossible.
To be really honest, i think you adapt to most bikes. Question is still if the bike you get really turn out to be that which would make you most happy.
What i guess talking wheels, is these Corima wheels, Bike Ahead and the 5 spoke Black Inc, i think those are harsh riding.
Part from that, i think it's as mentioned, trial and error. I can just look at the pile of saddles and handlebars i have.
It's enough to buy an S5 frameset.

Strangely, it's way more easy to test ride an expensive motorcycle.
I used to call and book test rides quite often back when i was riding.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

wannabefast
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:50 pm

by wannabefast

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:40 pm
Strangely, it's way more easy to test ride an expensive motorcycle.
I used to call and book test rides quite often back when i was riding.
I imagine that is at least partly owing to the fact that there aren't really "sizes" when it comes to motorcyles? A dealer only have to have one sample on hand for anyone to test ride, vs. bikes where you'd need at least 3 or 4 to cover the size range? The shops near me, usually will have at least 1 bike on hand, of the high end model, in their "A" brand to show off. But only 1. If it happens to fit you, great, take it for a test ride. If not, you're SOL.

MC356
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:22 pm
Location: Los Angeles

by MC356

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:21 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:00 pm
Nobody is ignoring the fact that Joe is sending out Hypers to people like Jasper, or that Seka sent an Exceed RDC to Cam.

And in the end I consistently recommend against the Winspace Hypers because they aren’t wide enough, only achieve reasonable lightness with a reduced number of carbon spokes and use proprietary hubs.

Who Jasper chooses to shill for doesn’t matter in the end because I was more interested if Marc from Wheel-Tec came to the same conclusions I did. Perhaps he shouldn’t even have hit publish on that video.
It doesn't matter to me or you, but his fans who might be more impressionable will focus on the fact that he "chose" to ride his A race on all Winspace kit - which is fair enough on his part, I'm sure he has bills to pay, but immediately disqualifies him as possibly having unbiased content.
I made some videos on youtube about the Winspace Hypers I had and I said that there were not good wheels, overhyped, felt slow, bearing or hub issues and had constant spoke problems. You cant believe the amount of hate I got. I even commented on Jaspers video about his Hypers and he responded so aggressively that I unfollowed him. But hey, I bought the wheels myself ,i have like 300 followers, no company is going to send me free stuff to review, and rode them for about a year and shared my experience with them. Glad I did it because some people commented thanking me for my review and even helped some people pick a different wheelset.

Everyone please be aware of reviews from youtube, especially if they offer a discount code. I mean if a company tell you to review a product, sends it to you for free, and gives you a discount code so you can make some money if people use your code why wouldn’t you say "OMG this is the best product ever made!" Just my 2 cents :D
BMC TMR01
Niner Air 9 RDO

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

MC356 wrote:
Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:32 pm


I made some videos on youtube about the Winspace Hypers I had and I said that there were not good wheels, overhyped, felt slow, bearing or hub issues and had constant spoke problems. You cant believe the amount of hate I got. I even commented on Jaspers video about his Hypers and he responded so aggressively that I unfollowed him. But hey, I bought the wheels myself ,i have like 300 followers, no company is going to send me free stuff to review, and rode them for about a year and shared my experience with them. Glad I did it because some people commented thanking me for my review and even helped some people pick a different wheelset.

Everyone please be aware of reviews from youtube, especially if they offer a discount code. I mean if a company tell you to review a product, sends it to you for free, and gives you a discount code so you can make some money if people use your code why wouldn’t you say "OMG this is the best product ever made!" Just my 2 cents :D
100% this and then some.

Anyone who thinks the likes of Winspace, Trifox (and others) don't have a marketing budget like the "big boys" have rocks in their head.

They know they won't build their brand on "low end" product (mostly because people searching for low end product will buy at department stores and sporting goods chains who have their own vertical channels...).

So they're doing similar to what Tesla did - start at the high end, go for the enthusiasts with money first and then when you've achieved some success, start to fill in the lower tiers.

And where do bike enthusiasts with money go? Youtube!!

No accident that shills and sell-outs like Cam Nichols, Durianrider, and others are producing content on these Chinese direct-to-consumer brands. They are on the take.

froze
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:47 am

by froze

I caught GNC in a couple of false stuff which I called them on, but never got a response. One was the testing of disk brakes vs rim brakes, the guy on the disk brake bike would slide his butt off the seat to put more weight on the rear tire; the guy on the rim brake bike was using straight CF rim with no AL brake track, and no brake pad ever made for a full CF rim ever stopped a bike great.

When it comes to knowing what bike to get, don't get hung up on all the marketing BS, because that's what it all is...BS! Just test ride some bikes, find one that speaks to you, not one that an ad agency spoke to you about! Remember, you're the one that has to ride the bike and not the marketing rep.

So who you do you trust? Trust yourself! Don't worry about it, you'll be fine and have a lot less stress.

I bought a bike in 2013 sight unseen, with no test riding, turned out to be the best riding road bike I've ever been on, I could have sent it back if I didn't like it, but I knew on the first ride I was riding something better than I had ever ridden before. Even test rides are not important, but if you're new to the game then I suggest you test ride, then do a process of elimination, but testing riding them a second time but eliminate the one, or ones you didn't like, and keep doing that till you have it narrowed down to 2 or 3, maybe 4, then if you can't decide then take into consideration which one is giving you the most for your money. Sometimes it could come down to which bike looks nicer to you, yup, it could come down to looks.

MilesG813
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu May 19, 2022 7:17 pm

by MilesG813

froze wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:10 am
; the guy on the rim brake bike was using straight CF rim with no AL brake track, and no brake pad ever made for a full CF rim ever stopped a bike great.
Can you even buy new carbon fiber wheels with an aluminum brake track? While by no means defending GCN I do not think that is as offensive as you make it out to be, most people on modern rim brake bikes will have full carbon wheels.
2022 Specialized S-Works SL7 I Ultegra R8170 I Princeton Carbonworks 6560
2012 Cannondale CAAD 10 I 105 R5700 I Zipp 404s

Woland
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:28 pm
Location: HEL

by Woland

I trust facts and numbers from independent sources. There are very few of those in the cycling media. BRR comes to mind, despite the flaws in their method, they're the best that the general public has access to. Then there are plenty of those who use the (seemingly) scientific method but who I'm sceptical of or don't trust at all, or they focus on measuring things that I find irrelevant in the real world.

In lack of facts and numbers, I trust James Huang above any other cycling journalist or writer.

As for bike reviews, that's difficult to judge due to their subjective nature. I have a couple of reviewers whose experience with a bike matches my own experience with the same bike, so I know we're aligned. For example, I recently rented a random gravel bike that I'd never heard of but loved to ride. I later searched for reviews of the bike, of which there was only a handful, and found that Guy Kesteven's review matched perfectly with my own experience. From now on I'll likely put more weight on his opinions than someone else's who I have no benchmark for. I have another writer like that, too, who shall remain anonymous as I know he (or his outlet) is disliked/discredited on this forum.

CampagYOLO
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu May 06, 2021 3:58 pm

by CampagYOLO

MilesG813 wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:12 pm
froze wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:10 am
; the guy on the rim brake bike was using straight CF rim with no AL brake track, and no brake pad ever made for a full CF rim ever stopped a bike great.
Can you even buy new carbon fiber wheels with an aluminum brake track? While by no means defending GCN I do not think that is as offensive as you make it out to be, most people on modern rim brake bikes will have full carbon wheels.
Yep, HED Jet wheels all have alloy brake tracks.

by Weenie


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