*NEW GEN* SRAM Force Groupset March 2023

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

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de lars cuevas
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:28 pm
Location: the Netherlands

by de lars cuevas

MisterNoChain wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:04 pm
Will this group already be the one without a front mech? With the shifting inside of the crankset. Really looking forward to seeing how that works irl .
This is new to me. Tell me more?🙂

Or are you referring to the 2-speed hub classified system? https://www.classified-cycling.cc/powershift-technology

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

de lars cuevas wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:26 am
MisterNoChain wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:04 pm
Will this group already be the one without a front mech? With the shifting inside of the crankset. Really looking forward to seeing how that works irl .
This is new to me. Tell me more?🙂

Or are you referring to the 2-speed hub classified system? https://www.classified-cycling.cc/powershift-technology

I believe he's referring to this crazy system where the front shifting is built into the chainrings.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/06/radical ... railleurs/

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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de lars cuevas
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:28 pm
Location: the Netherlands

by de lars cuevas

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:37 am

I believe he's referring to this crazy system where the front shifting is built into the chainrings

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/06/radical ... railleurs/
Thanks. 🙂 I'd rather go for Classified. 🙂

grooveninja
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:33 am

by grooveninja

SRAM actually had an crankset with planetary gearing 15 years ago for MTB. It was beefy and durable,but heavy.

https://www.pinkbike.com/video/40871/

de lars cuevas
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:28 pm
Location: the Netherlands

by de lars cuevas

grooveninja wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:12 pm
SRAM actually had an crankset with planetary gearing 15 years ago for MTB. It was beefy and durable,but heavy.

https://www.pinkbike.com/video/40871/
yup, the infamous Hammerschmidt. 🙂

MisterNoChain
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:29 pm

by MisterNoChain

TobinHatesYou wrote:
de lars cuevas wrote:
Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:26 am
MisterNoChain wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:04 pm
Will this group already be the one without a front mech? With the shifting inside of the crankset. Really looking forward to seeing how that works irl .
This is new to me. Tell me more?Image

Or are you referring to the 2-speed hub classified system? https://www.classified-cycling.cc/powershift-technology

I believe he's referring to this crazy system where the front shifting is built into the chainrings.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/06/radical ... railleurs/
That's the one. Some time ago i spoke to someone who saw the system at Sram hq. It's a real thing that's coming, the question is when.

spartan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

finally the new team on bikeradar are doing more honest opinions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcOIWTYsFg

everything in this video i agree 100%. when this groupset came out three years ago alot of ww (me included) criticized sram for a giant step backward with axs release. 10t cassette/smaller chainring/integrated power/brutish design. at the time the sram ww fan boys like tobinhatesyou deligently defended the new groupset.

hoping the new groupset goes back to basics and produce superlight road specific groupsets.
Current Rides:

2023 Tarmac SL7 Di2 9270
ex 2019 S-works SL6
ex 2018 Trek Madone SLR Disc
ex 2016 Giant TCRAdvanced Sl
ex 2012 Trek Madone7

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

spartan wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:15 am
finally the new team on bikeradar are doing more honest opinions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcOIWTYsFg

everything in this video i agree 100%. when this groupset came out three years ago alot of ww (me included) criticized sram for a giant step backward with axs release. 10t cassette/smaller chainring/integrated power/brutish design. at the time the sram ww fan boys like tobinhatesyou deligently defended the new groupset.

hoping the new groupset goes back to basics and produce superlight road specific groupsets.

If Shimano made what I wanted, I’d defend them.

The 10t is fine. It’s basically a requirement for 1x builds. It’s necessary for the gravel market. And for my needs I prefer having smallish jumps AND the range the 10t allows for. Shimano would do well to follow suit if they want to be taken seriously in the gravel-space. Campagnolo has 9t cogs. The smaller chainring isn’t a separate issue, it’s an effect of including a 10t. While I once thought SRAM should make 11-xx cassettes to satisfy the requirements of pro-level cyclists, I no longer believe that’s necessary after actually having owned AXS.

Lol power meters. I own several SRAM groups and I don’t own any integrated AXS chainring power meters. I’ll remind you that SRAM/Quarq makes 4x107, 5x110 and even 4x110 model power meter spiders. What does Shimano make? Two generations of crank-based power meters that GPLama says aren’t accurate?

Brutish design? Well that’s like, just your opinion man. I happen to like having modular spiders and cranks and easily accessible/swappable batteries. I like the eTap shifting paradigm. I like the fact that there is a whole AXS ecosystem that has cross-compatibility between MTB, gravel and road. Meanwhile GRX is still 11-speed and Shimano honestly doesn’t know what it’s doing with HG, HG-EV, MicroSpline and eventually MicroSpline Road. The E-Tube app only recently gained the capabilities of the AXS app. AXS had wireless firmware updates before Shimano integrated the separate WU11’s capabilities into the 12-speed hardware. Most of all SRAM RD clutches work better than Shimano ones, and having a clutch on the road RD is actually quite nice.

Oh and what’s the deal with Shimano pretending that only BSA, ITA and PF41 exist? T47 and BB386EVO are here to stay. Maybe they should make bottom brackets in those formats.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Why is a 10t a "requirement" for 1x builds? What does it give a bike rider or designer that a slightly bigger chainring up front doesn't?

I agree, having a clutch on a road RD can be nice. It'd be pretty cool to see a remotely activated one so you can switch it on before a downhill section, for example.

I too like the idea of accessibe and swappable batteries but I'd still choose Shimano on a) the significantly smaller and out-of-the-wayderailleurs, and b) the use of mineral oil.

Oh, and Shimano *can* build a really, really good clutch. The m8000 is still their best (mechanical) rear derailleur ever.

apr46
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

I think we are in for an incremental upgrade where they lose some weight out of the shifters, change their shape and thats about it. I hope everything even stays compatible between current axs and future axs, this is a real possibility since rival / force / red all share firmware and these test components seem to use either current gen or nearly visually identical components. That and SRAM would want to keep cross compatibility between road shifters and MTB derailleurs for the gravel market.

Firmware is also one of the things that also gets overlooked. If you bought an axs groupset and have owned it since launch its actually gotten better via firmware updates as they have refined performance and front shifting.

But if we can make wishlists, i want a stock 48/32 front chainring option.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

robertbb wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:27 am
Why is a 10t a "requirement" for 1x builds? What does it give a bike rider or designer that a slightly bigger chainring up front doesn't?

I agree, having a clutch on a road RD can be nice. It'd be pretty cool to see a remotely activated one so you can switch it on before a downhill section, for example.

I too like the idea of accessibe and swappable batteries but I'd still choose Shimano on a) the significantly smaller and out-of-the-wayderailleurs, and b) the use of mineral oil.

Oh, and Shimano *can* build a really, really good clutch. The m8000 is still their best (mechanical) rear derailleur ever.

My mullet build uses a 10-52. That would be equivalent to an "11-57.2" and that creates some design challenges. While the percentage jumps remain about the same, the absolute jumps increase in distance. Not only would a rear derailleur need to be redesigned from 41t capacity to 46-47t capacity, but every shift would be mechanically, geometrically more difficult because the RD would have to move a greater distance. The cage and pulleys would have to scale up along with everything else. There might be real ground clearance issues. More chain links = more drag. More everything = more weight. Campagnolo went 9t for good reason.

It would be cool if the clutch could be automatically activated since the RD has a built in gyro already. But as it stands Friction Facts tested the SRAM clutch as having zero additional mechanical drag.

+1 for mineral oil. SRAM has hinted at a switch on the MTB side already. Hope it eventually happens, but I don't think it'll happen during this update cycle.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:04 am
robertbb wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:27 am
Why is a 10t a "requirement" for 1x builds? What does it give a bike rider or designer that a slightly bigger chainring up front doesn't?

I agree, having a clutch on a road RD can be nice. It'd be pretty cool to see a remotely activated one so you can switch it on before a downhill section, for example.

I too like the idea of accessibe and swappable batteries but I'd still choose Shimano on a) the significantly smaller and out-of-the-wayderailleurs, and b) the use of mineral oil.

Oh, and Shimano *can* build a really, really good clutch. The m8000 is still their best (mechanical) rear derailleur ever.

My mullet build uses a 10-52. That would be equivalent to an "11-57.2" and that creates some design challenges. While the percentage jumps remain about the same, the absolute jumps increase in distance. Not only would a rear derailleur need to be redesigned from 41t capacity to 46-47t capacity, but every shift would be mechanically, geometrically more difficult because the RD would have to move a greater distance. The cage and pulleys would have to scale up along with everything else. There might be real ground clearance issues. More chain links = more drag. More everything = more weight. Campagnolo went 9t for good reason.

It would be cool if the clutch could be automatically activated since the RD has a built in gyro already. But as it stands Friction Facts tested the SRAM clutch as having zero additional mechanical drag.

+1 for mineral oil. SRAM has hinted at a switch on the MTB side already. Hope it eventually happens, but I don't think it'll happen during this update cycle.
Fair enough. Good explanation on the cog sizes..! :thumbup: I still feel that in 12 speed world, an 11-40 or 42 cassette with a "normal" 1x chainring size, like 38/40/42, makes a lot of sense. It wouldn't require new freehubs for punters that don't want or can't afford to change that.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

It would be interesting to see a totally new crankset able to maintain chainline better. Probably would require a new FD to, but i think it's about time something more revolutionary happens.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

maurice1
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:51 pm
Location: Jura

by maurice1

I hope SRAM goes back to bigger chainring difference. I think 13T jump is too small. I like my 48-31 but in an ideal world the chainrings would be fully modular and customizable anyway. But I hope they at least get a 15T jump if they stick to one piece chainrings

splzd
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:11 am

by splzd

spartan wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:15 am
finally the new team on bikeradar are doing more honest opinions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcOIWTYsFg

everything in this video i agree 100%. when this groupset came out three years ago alot of ww (me included) criticized sram for a giant step backward with axs release. 10t cassette/smaller chainring/integrated power/brutish design. at the time the sram ww fan boys like tobinhatesyou deligently defended the new groupset.

hoping the new groupset goes back to basics and produce superlight road specific groupsets.
So if someone agrees with yout opinion it's "honest" and if someone has another opinion he's a "fanboy"? Can't take you serious then.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



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