*NEW GEN* SRAM Force Groupset March 2023

[Pyotrump]

I'm hoping that SRAM will shift to use mineral oil like they did this year with their DB8 brakes.

I heard that there is a dealer presentation on the new group happening over the next couple weeks.

Maybe we can gather some more information when those presentations start.

So we can have leaking squeeling brakes like Shimano? No thanks.

Not sure if I'm reading your message right, but it would be good to know how use of mineral oil contributes to Shimano's squeaky brakes, compared to DOT brake fluid used by SRAM. Is this really a thing?

Shimano leaky ceramic piston is a problem exclusive to Shimano. Not all piston do it. But the defective ones (which strangely not so rare) let mineral oil slowly weep through ceramic piston very very slowly. It'll contaminate the pad and disc if the bike is left no use for months (like storing bike for winter, to use it in spring/summer). It's more common on mtb where there are more smaller pistons per caliper vs fewer bigger piston road caliper.

Other mineral oil brakes such as Magura, Campagnolo, Formula, TRP, Hope don't have this issue. So I won't tie this issue to mineral oil either. It's Shimano issue, not mineral oil issue.

I think, the origin of shimano's leaky piston is piston's material.

Ceramic is pouruous matter and liquid can seep out of it slowly + it is hard to be machined for tiny torelance.

The reason shimano using this for their piston is due to its lower heat conductivity and hardness as Shi uses mineral oil which boils at realtively lower temp than DOT fluid.

Sram decided not to use ceramic but metal for their piston so they had to choose DOT (or vice versa, they may have had wanted to use DOT so metal piston)

[RustyCage]

I only wish for the Red/Force cassette/chain to be as good as Shimano or Campy. All the other stuff is a distant 2nd. Please no 13spd!

[jadedaid]

I'd like a 10-36 and 10-44 Red casette. Those are some obvious gaps.

[openwheelracing]

Shimano leaky ceramic piston is a problem exclusive to Shimano. Not all piston do it. But the defective ones (which strangely not so rare) let mineral oil slowly weep through ceramic piston very very slowly. It'll contaminate the pad and disc if the bike is left no use for months (like storing bike for winter, to use it in spring/summer). It's more common on mtb where there are more smaller pistons per caliper vs fewer bigger piston road caliper.

Other mineral oil brakes such as Magura, Campagnolo, Formula, TRP, Hope don't have this issue. So I won't tie this issue to mineral oil either. It's Shimano issue, not mineral oil issue.

It's probably safe to say leaking pistons are an industry wide problem. Shimano is the biggest and so would have the highest number of cases, but I doubt any manufacturer is blameless.

I have had an issue with a Campagnolo caliper leaking fluid and contaminating brake pads. Sadly Campy's UK distributor refused to warranty the caliper and said it must have been a fitting issue, despite the bike being checked by a Campy service centre. I have new caliper on the bike now and it works perfectly.

Yeah, no manufacturer is blameless to leaky piston.
But most other brands leak either because of how the piston and seal fit in the bore. Or cracked piston. Those are usually quite sudden.
Shimano, however, is frequently reported with ceramic piston that simply weep fluid through ceramic pore slowly. So slow that if you use the bike frequently, the leak fluid won't accumulate enough to be noticeable. It'll just leave some ring shape mark in the back of the brake pads. Mtbr users suggested white shimano ceramic piston to have this happen a lot. But little to no report of such problem on black piston used on the new flat mount calipers yet.

like this?

[ooo]

Shimano, however, is frequently reported with ceramic piston that simply weep fluid through ceramic pore slowly. So slow that if you use the bike frequently, the leak fluid won't accumulate enough to be noticeable. It'll just leave some ring shape mark in the back of the brake pads. Mtbr users suggested white shimano ceramic piston to have this happen a lot.

But little to no report of such problem on black piston used on the new flat mount calipers yet.

That's because new calipers use non-ceramic (resin) pistons:

BR-R9170 (ceramic) -> BR-R9270 (resin)
BR-R8070 (ceramic) -> BR-R8170 (resin)
BR-R7070 (ceramic) -> BR-R7170 (resin)
BR-4770 (resin)

BR-RX810 (ceramic) -> BR-RX820 (resin)
BR-RX400 (resin)

[Aeo]

Need XTR brakes with resin pistons ASAP

[Ritxis]

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/new-s ... ted-298013

[ichobi]

Seem to confirm that it's the Rival shifter with carbon levers. Probably ergonomic reasons.

[StiffWeenies]

Seem to confirm that it's the Rival shifter with carbon levers. Probably ergonomic reasons.

Riding on Rival levers basically ruined Red hydraulic for me. The smaller hood ergonomics are fantastic, the buttons feel much more tactile and honestly the weight isn't too far off Force. Approx ~15g per side (double for Red?) which can easily be made up by swapping to Hope X2 FM calipers.

[jadedaid]

Riding on Rival levers basically ruined Red hydraulic for me. The smaller hood ergonomics are fantastic, the buttons feel much more tactile and honestly the weight isn't too far off Force. Approx ~15g per side (double for Red?) which can easily be made up by swapping to Hope X2 FM calipers.

Wonder if they move over to Rival shifters for gravel as well. I didn't like the rival shifters much when I tired them, but admittedly don't have enough bike time with them. How are the Rival shifters offroad? I like the current gen shifters for the support they offer compared to say GRX where I found myself almost flying off the shifters in rougher terrain.

[morrisond]

The new levers will probably take the shape of Rival as by some reports they are lighter and they work absolutely fine with wireless blips. No need for the extra ports.

I also strongly suspect that in 2x it is still 12SP as there is just not enough space in there to cram in another gear, unless something like 10-36 becames the smallest cassette.

Campy was only able to go to 13sp by cantilevering the 36 tooth cog over the hub flange, A 29T big sprocket would hit the hub flange. So 1X new AXS could be 13S - no real reason not too.

It was also be nice if they expanded the range of the FD to 16SP again - just like Campy is reported to do with their new 12sp group. Campy's new cassette options are 10-25, 10-27 and 10-29 - all nice and tight - a 13sp 10-36 would not as tight as Campy's widest 10-29.

Assuming something like an 48/32 crank and 10-36 as smallest tells me that new AXS probably won't be 13sp.

[TobinHatesYou]

The new levers will probably take the shape of Rival as by some reports they are lighter and they work absolutely fine with wireless blips. No need for the extra ports.

I also strongly suspect that in 2x it is still 12SP as there is just not enough space in there to cram in another gear, unless something like 10-36 becames the smallest cassette.

Campy was only able to go to 13sp by cantilevering the 36 tooth cog over the hub flange, A 29T big sprocket would hit the hub flange. So 1X new AXS could be 13S - no real reason not too.

It was also be nice if they expanded the range of the FD to 16SP again - just like Campy is reported to do with their new 12sp group. Campy's new cassette options are 10-25, 10-27 and 10-29 - all nice and tight - a 13sp 10-36 would not as tight as Campy's widest 10-29.

Assuming something like an 48/32 crank and 10-36 as smallest tells me that new AXS probably won't be 13sp.

The 10t cog allows SRAM to achieve great range without the larger 16t jump in front. I’ve been able to shift my 50/34 just fine up front as well.

46/33x10-36 = 502%
vs
50/34x11-36 = 481%

[morrisond]

The new levers will probably take the shape of Rival as by some reports they are lighter and they work absolutely fine with wireless blips. No need for the extra ports.

I also strongly suspect that in 2x it is still 12SP as there is just not enough space in there to cram in another gear, unless something like 10-36 becames the smallest cassette.

Campy was only able to go to 13sp by cantilevering the 36 tooth cog over the hub flange, A 29T big sprocket would hit the hub flange. So 1X new AXS could be 13S - no real reason not too.

It was also be nice if they expanded the range of the FD to 16SP again - just like Campy is reported to do with their new 12sp group. Campy's new cassette options are 10-25, 10-27 and 10-29 - all nice and tight - a 13sp 10-36 would not as tight as Campy's widest 10-29.

Assuming something like an 48/32 crank and 10-36 as smallest tells me that new AXS probably won't be 13sp.

The 10t cog allows SRAM to achieve great range without the larger 16t jump in front. I’ve been able to shift my 50/34 just fine up front as well.

46/33x10-36 = 502%
vs
50/34x11-36 = 481%

Great then no reason to not make new SRAM 12sp 2X officially 16T difference up front. A 46/30 Crank with 10-32 or 33 will be the same spread as now but tighter gearing.

[Hexsense]

like this?

Yeah it looks like that but I can't say for sure if that ring shaped mark is caused by leaky piston.
There could also be trapped moisture with abrasive brake dust/dirt that scratch pad backing plate around the piston contact.

The 10t cog allows SRAM to achieve great range without the larger 16t jump in front. I’ve been able to shift my 50/34 just fine up front as well.

46/33x10-36 = 502%
vs
50/34x11-36 = 481%

Great then no reason to not make new SRAM 12sp 2X officially 16T difference up front. A 46/30 Crank with 10-32 or 33 will be the same spread as now but tighter gearing.

Or go wild with the range
48/31 (GRX crank) x10-36 = 534%
Yeah, lets make that. With 10-36 's big range, there are still a ton of overlapped gears between 48t and 31t ring.
http://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS&KB= ... H&DV=teeth

[morrisond]

like this?

Yeah it looks like that but I can't say for sure if that ring shaped mark is caused by leaky piston.
There could also be trapped moisture with abrasive brake dust/dirt that scratch pad backing plate around the piston contact.

The 10t cog allows SRAM to achieve great range without the larger 16t jump in front. I’ve been able to shift my 50/34 just fine up front as well.

46/33x10-36 = 502%
vs
50/34x11-36 = 481%

Great then no reason to not make new SRAM 12sp 2X officially 16T difference up front. A 46/30 Crank with 10-32 or 33 will be the same spread as now but tighter gearing.

Or go wild with the range
48/31 (GRX crank) x10-36 = 534%
Yeah, lets make that. With 10-36 's big range, there are still a ton of overlapped gears between 48t and 31t ring.
http://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS&KB= ... H&DV=teeth

I'll take 48/31 or 46/29 any day as that means tighter gearing in the back.