Shimano 12-speed cassette with SRAM AXS?

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

andy4g63 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:34 pm
With all the information here I have to ask:

Do you guys think that an Absolute Black oval ring in 48/32/11 speed./, would work with SRAM AXS flattop chain???

I have an AB oval in 50-36 on my other bike and running with Shimano M9100 XTR 12 sp. chain and it runs and shifts spectacular.

The only thing I had to do is to file the pulleys a little bit to make them narrower.

I have J&L pulleys and they were skipping a bit before I sanded them...

Soo could I have the 11 sp.AB ovals with SRAM AXS flat chain???

Or maybe is better to use Shimano 12 sp chain with 11 sp AB rings/since I am running it on the other Etap/ but not AXS bike.

LMK on your thoughts...

Cheers,🍻
Most threads i've seen says Sram is super problematic with oval chainrings.
To be honest, i wouldn't even try. The FD is so picky when it comes to how the FD cage works moving the chain talking setup.
To me it seems the info (read between the lines) of a working setup kind of says, don't go there....
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

rj70
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:26 am

by rj70

I plan on trying out osymetric rings alongside red axs 12sp deraileurs and shimano chainset and cassette, I'm sure it will work but how well the front shifting can be set up will be interesting.
Recently upgraded my old setup from 7970 di2 to 8100 di2 and the front shifting is now really really good even with osymetric oval rings, but only when using a sram eagle chain. I could not get it to shift nicely with a 12 speed shimano chain or a sram flat top chain.

by Weenie


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milanv
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am

by milanv

rj70 wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:27 pm
I plan on trying out osymetric rings alongside red axs 12sp deraileurs and shimano chainset and cassette, I'm sure it will work but how well the front shifting can be set up will be interesting.
Recently upgraded my old setup from 7970 di2 to 8100 di2 and the front shifting is now really really good even with osymetric oval rings, but only when using a sram eagle chain. I could not get it to shift nicely with a 12 speed shimano chain or a sram flat top chain.
Guys, there is a good thread about oval chainrings, where we can discuss them.
I am also an oval chainrings rider.
viewtopic.php?t=171106

andy4g63
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:02 pm

by andy4g63

wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:06 pm
andy4g63 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:34 pm
With all the information here I have to ask:

Do you guys think that an Absolute Black oval ring in 48/32/11 speed./, would work with SRAM AXS flattop chain???

I have an AB oval in 50-36 on my other bike and running with Shimano M9100 XTR 12 sp. chain and it runs and shifts spectacular.

The only thing I had to do is to file the pulleys a little bit to make them narrower.

I have J&L pulleys and they were skipping a bit before I sanded them...

Soo could I have the 11 sp.AB ovals with SRAM AXS flat chain???

Or maybe is better to use Shimano 12 sp chain with 11 sp AB rings/since I am running it on the other Etap/ but not AXS bike.

LMK on your thoughts...

Cheers,🍻
Most threads i've seen says Sram is super problematic with oval chainrings.
To be honest, i wouldn't even try. The FD is so picky when it comes to how the FD cage works moving the chain talking setup.
To me it seems the info (read between the lines) of a working setup kind of says, don't go there....
Actually to be honest,
I have Force AXS on my road bike/Canyon Ultimate with Oval Rotor rings/for SRAM AXS/ and
the shifting is spectacular...

I just wanted to go lower so I would have under 1:1 ratio, but with SRAM Red AXS 10-33 cassette

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

andy4g63 wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:09 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:06 pm
andy4g63 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:34 pm
With all the information here I have to ask:

Do you guys think that an Absolute Black oval ring in 48/32/11 speed./, would work with SRAM AXS flattop chain???

I have an AB oval in 50-36 on my other bike and running with Shimano M9100 XTR 12 sp. chain and it runs and shifts spectacular.

The only thing I had to do is to file the pulleys a little bit to make them narrower.

I have J&L pulleys and they were skipping a bit before I sanded them...

Soo could I have the 11 sp.AB ovals with SRAM AXS flat chain???

Or maybe is better to use Shimano 12 sp chain with 11 sp AB rings/since I am running it on the other Etap/ but not AXS bike.

LMK on your thoughts...

Cheers,🍻
Most threads i've seen says Sram is super problematic with oval chainrings.
To be honest, i wouldn't even try. The FD is so picky when it comes to how the FD cage works moving the chain talking setup.
To me it seems the info (read between the lines) of a working setup kind of says, don't go there....
Actually to be honest,
I have Force AXS on my road bike/Canyon Ultimate with Oval Rotor rings/for SRAM AXS/ and
the shifting is spectacular...

I just wanted to go lower so I would have under 1:1 ratio, but with SRAM Red AXS 10-33 cassette
That is good news :thumbup:
Are you using 43.5 or 46mm chainline axle?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

andy4g63
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:02 pm

by andy4g63

@wheelsONfire
I am using Dura ace 9100 crank, cause I had the Shimano BB and didn't wanna swap it/press fit/.

So I believe Shimano chain line is still 43.5

s3si1u
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:12 am

by s3si1u

Just set up my bike with AXS, coming from Red 22. I wanted to make this as much of a budget "upgrade" as possible, so I took my time hunting down all the parts I wated. I figured an AXS cassette was out of the question, even then Rival is very expensive. R7200 cassettes are both cheap and readily available, so that's the route I took.
I found great deals on new Rival AXS shifters and a new Red FD, as well as a used Force FD. The rest of the group is a mashup of stuff including my old Red 22 GXP crankset and Praxis 52/36 12 speed compatible rings, as well as a new KMC 12 speed chain and R7200 11-34 cassette.
Front derailleur setup was a breeze on the Praxis rings using the setup tool and front shifting is already better than I could ever achieve on my old Red 22 setup. Rear derailleur setup was a bit more difficult, but all the gears shifted well enough in the stand, maybe a tad crunchy on a couple cogs. I did the best I could and figured I would dial in adjustment as I went. I brought the bike to the LBS because I was having trouble adjusting the calipers and rotors. I asked the tech if he'd ever seen anyone running an AXS groupset with a Shimano cassette. He said something like "no, but it should work fine. Want me to take a look?" I said yes please :) and shifting has been pretty great. So far, so good. To be fair, I've only put about 20 miles on the setup, so I'll update if my thoughts change later on. I did notice a bit of wobble on the cassette, so I'll troubleshoot that. Even then, shifting is great. I only noticed it because I looked down.

bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

s3si1u wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:55 am
Just set up my bike with AXS, coming from Red 22. I wanted to make this as much of a budget "upgrade" as possible, so I took my time hunting down all the parts I wated. I figured an AXS cassette was out of the question, even then Rival is very expensive. R7200 cassettes are both cheap and readily available, so that's the route I took.
I found great deals on new Rival AXS shifters and a new Red FD, as well as a used Force FD. The rest of the group is a mashup of stuff including my old Red 22 GXP crankset and Praxis 52/36 12 speed compatible rings, as well as a new KMC 12 speed chain and R7200 11-34 cassette.
Front derailleur setup was a breeze on the Praxis rings using the setup tool and front shifting is already better than I could ever achieve on my old Red 22 setup. Rear derailleur setup was a bit more difficult, but all the gears shifted well enough in the stand, maybe a tad crunchy on a couple cogs. I did the best I could and figured I would dial in adjustment as I went. I brought the bike to the LBS because I was having trouble adjusting the calipers and rotors. I asked the tech if he'd ever seen anyone running an AXS groupset with a Shimano cassette. He said something like "no, but it should work fine. Want me to take a look?" I said yes please :) and shifting has been pretty great. So far, so good. To be fair, I've only put about 20 miles on the setup, so I'll update if my thoughts change later on. I did notice a bit of wobble on the cassette, so I'll troubleshoot that. Even then, shifting is great. I only noticed it because I looked down.
Quite a few here have discussed the cassette wobble with Shimano 12-speed cassettes on some hubs and the cure is to remove the sticky ring from the back of the cassette and/or fit a 0.5 or 1 mm spacer to the hub. I use the spacer on both my AXS bikes with Shimano cassettes because not only does it fix the wobble on one wheel, it moves the whole cassette outboard into the middle of the AXS RD microadjust range (so more similar to native XDR hubs). I also think the spacer loosens the tolerance for precise hanger alignment and improves the chainline as shifting is unacceptable without it on my setups.

I haven't used a KMC 12-speed chain yet, but rear shifting is less clunky on the bike with the Ultegra cassette and chain than on the bike with the 105 cassette and flattop chain. I am not sure how much you can attribute this improvement to the Shimano chain or the Hyperglide + feature missing from the 105 level cassettes, but in any case, shifting is more than acceptable on the 105 cassette with the flattop chain, just not a quiet and smooth as the Ultegra setup.

I must say I am disappointed with the Praxis Buzz 12-speed rings. Yes, they shift adequatedly, but the pickup can be hestitant and noisy. I've just reemployed old 11-speed SRAM rings on one of my Red Exogram chainsets to use with AXS, and the shifting is so much quieter, slicker and smoother than the Praxis rings on the exact same crank.

DaveS
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by DaveS

Deleted.

s3si1u
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:12 am

by s3si1u

bobones wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:37 pm
Quite a few here have discussed the cassette wobble with Shimano 12-speed cassettes on some hubs and the cure is to remove the sticky ring from the back of the cassette and/or fit a 0.5 or 1 mm spacer to the hub. I use the spacer on both my AXS bikes with Shimano cassettes because not only does it fix the wobble on one wheel, it moves the whole cassette outboard into the middle of the AXS RD microadjust range (so more similar to native XDR hubs). I also think the spacer loosens the tolerance for precise hanger alignment and improves the chainline as shifting is unacceptable without it on my setups.

I haven't used a KMC 12-speed chain yet, but rear shifting is less clunky on the bike with the Ultegra cassette and chain than on the bike with the 105 cassette and flattop chain. I am not sure how much you can attribute this improvement to the Shimano chain or the Hyperglide + feature missing from the 105 level cassettes, but in any case, shifting is more than acceptable on the 105 cassette with the flattop chain, just not a quiet and smooth as the Ultegra setup.

I must say I am disappointed with the Praxis Buzz 12-speed rings. Yes, they shift adequatedly, but the pickup can be hestitant and noisy. I've just reemployed old 11-speed SRAM rings on one of my Red Exogram chainsets to use with AXS, and the shifting is so much quieter, slicker and smoother than the Praxis rings on the exact same crank.
Sweet, thanks for the pointers on the cassette wobble. I'll be sure to read through the entire thread and see what else I should be looking out for.
Agree on all points you make about the Praxis rings. Pickup is a little slow, but I had zero failed shifts when testing and it's fast enough for the few front shifts I'll really do. I can deal with the slow and sometimes crunchy upshifts, for now. :lol: I'm running the Exogram crankset as well, seems 12 speed chainring options are limited. Maybe I should pick up something different for further testing.
About the KMC chain, vanity gets the best of me and I just have to have a gold chain :D Perhaps it could be a bit lighter, but it runs fairly quiet so I'm happy. I also have a PYC chain sitting in the tool box that I'll try out some day. It's quite similar in look and weight to the KMC.

MrStop
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:59 pm
Location: United States

by MrStop

Great thread! This is one of the final pieces I have been trying to figure out on my FrankenRimMech setup viewtopic.php?f=3&t=171686. Actually learned a new term "Sramano". My build won't be AXS, but a mechanical/rim brake setup based on the Sram Force/Red 22 11-spd shifter

I think I have finally pieced together what my final Sramano FrankenRimMech might look like:
  • Shifters - SRAM FORCE 22 2x11
    Ratio - 12 Speed Road Ratchet
    Front Derailleur - Shimano Ultegra R8000/Dura-Ace R9100
    Rear Derailleur - SRAM Force/Red 22 Medium Cage

    Bottom Bracket - SRAM BSA DUB
    Crank Arms - SRAM RED AXS D1 DUB Carbon
    Spider - Croder Spirit Spider/Quark Dzero
    Chainring - Praxis Buzz 53/39 10/11/12sp

    Cassette - Shimano or ZTTO 12spd
    Chain - Shimano Ultegra/Dura-Ace 12-spd

    Brakes - Ultegra R8000
I have sourced the brakes and crank arms. Now looking to gather the remainder for the build. I'll be quite a bit over my original budget depending on deals i can find. However, I should have a modern and lightweight setup. I'm estimating weight savings between 450 and 590 grams over my current groupset depending on final selections.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

Finally got a chance to ride the V2R with the Red Flat Top chain combined with P2M Campy crank and rings 52/36 Shimano Edco cassette and it seems to shift very well in all combinations front and rear. No chain drops or caught between rings and that was with no micro adjustments while with the Campy SR chain I was on the limits for micro adjustments and it wasnt shifting as quickly as the Red. This means I still have room for micro adjusts but I think its fine the way it is. Looking to purchase another for wax rotations.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
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MrStop
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:59 pm
Location: United States

by MrStop

Second guessing my thoughts on going with 110 BCD Praxis Buzz chainrings. Would I be better off running Shimano 12-speed chainrings? Any other I should consider? All these unique manufacturer standards are driving me crazy!

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MrStop wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:25 am
Second guessing my thoughts on going with 110 BCD Praxis Buzz chainrings. Would I be better off running Shimano 12-speed chainrings? Any other I should consider? All these unique manufacturer standards are driving me crazy!

Chainrings don't matter so much. All the compatibility issues to worry about are in the back, not the front.

by Weenie


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MrStop
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:59 pm
Location: United States

by MrStop

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:00 am
MrStop wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:25 am
Second guessing my thoughts on going with 110 BCD Praxis Buzz chainrings. Would I be better off running Shimano 12-speed chainrings? Any other I should consider? All these unique manufacturer standards are driving me crazy!

Chainrings don't matter so much. All the compatibility issues to worry about are in the back, not the front.
My fear is more of shift quality. A few have mentioned some concerns of how the Praxis performs, but others have said it's fine. Just overthinking and wandering if something would be better. Moreover, should I go with a 110BCD 4 arm vs staying with the traditional 5 arm.

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