Shimano 12-speed cassette with SRAM AXS?

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bobones
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by bobones

TXkestrel wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:34 pm
Anyone on here using a flattop chain with AXS cassette on wheels with a shimano cassette on the trainer? Curious if this works or if the adjustement between the two is different and would need to be changed between each or if directly plug and play without having to adjust. Im really trying to avoid dropping the cash on the XDR freehub body for my trainer when im very happy with my axs cassette and wheels with axs freehub body.
In my experience, Shimano cogs sit further inboard than native XDR and need 8 or more clicks on the RD micro adjust to work. However, I run my Shimano cassettes with a 1 mm spacer, which moves them back out into the middle of the micro adjust range (about 15 on the app). So you could use the app to see what the micro adjust number was for the XDR wheel then shim the Shimano cassette outboard with spacers to try to match them. I know you get 1 and 0.5 mm spacers for hubs, but there are probably thinner ones available that could make this work quite precisely. I'm not sure if headset micro spacers or disc brake rotor spacers are the correct diameter to fit around the freehub, but it's worth a look.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

andy4g63 wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 2:15 pm
@wheelsONfire
I am using Dura ace 9100 crank, cause I had the Shimano BB and didn't wanna swap it/press fit/.

So I believe Shimano chain line is still 43.5
Sram Etap 11 speed, chainline 45.5mm
Sram AXS 12 speed, chainline 45mm
Shimano 12 speed, chainline 44.5mm
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

MrStop
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by MrStop

How is the chainline measured and what effect does it have?

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

MrStop wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:06 pm
How is the chainline measured and what effect does it have?
On 2x, centre of the frame to a point halfway between the chain rings. Pre disc brakes & thru axles, chainlines were around the 43.5mm which worked fine with a 130mm spaced rear end. To accommodate discs frames first moved to 135mm QR and then adopted 142mm TA spacing moving the cassette out by between 2.5mm and 6mm, so the chainline had to be tweaked to avoid the chain being skewed too much in higher gears. Campagnolo & Shimano have now moved their chainlines out to 44.5mm.

As for what effect chainline has, that depends. Too far in, using older chainsets on a 12s disc bike, may not be as smooth in smaller sprockets. Too far out, using latest 12s chainset on an older rim brake frame with short stays, may cause issues in big ring & larger sprockets. There may be issues getting the front mech to shift properly and trim correctly.

MrStop
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by MrStop

ultimobici wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:41 am
MrStop wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:06 pm
How is the chainline measured and what effect does it have?
On 2x, centre of the frame to a point halfway between the chain rings. Pre disc brakes & thru axles, chainlines were around the 43.5mm which worked fine with a 130mm spaced rear end. To accommodate discs frames first moved to 135mm QR and then adopted 142mm TA spacing moving the cassette out by between 2.5mm and 6mm, so the chainline had to be tweaked to avoid the chain being skewed too much in higher gears. Campagnolo & Shimano have now moved their chainlines out to 44.5mm.

As for what effect chainline has, that depends. Too far in, using older chainsets on a 12s disc bike, may not be as smooth in smaller sprockets. Too far out, using latest 12s chainset on an older rim brake frame with short stays, may cause issues in big ring & larger sprockets. There may be issues getting the front mech to shift properly and trim correctly.


Thanks for the clarification. Very helpful!!!

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

ultimobici wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:41 am
To accommodate discs frames first moved to 135mm QR and then adopted 142mm TA spacing moving the cassette out by between 2.5mm and 6mm,
Actually, the 142mm TA put cassette in the identical location to the 135mm QR. Both are 2.5mm outward than 130mm QR.
The 7mm extra space on TA (3.5mm each side) are there to help align rear wheel in the frame dropout slot. The hub axle simply poke through 3.5mm further out than disc and cassette each side.

MrStop
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by MrStop

I'll be running a SRAM AXS Dub crank and Praxis Rings on a 130mm older rim brake frame with a Shimano 12-speed cassette and chain. If I'm reading correctly, I might benefit from a 1.0 to 1.5 mm shim between the cassette and freewheel body. Does that sound correct?

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

MrStop wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:35 pm
I'll be running a SRAM AXS Dub crank and Praxis Rings on a 130mm older rim brake frame with a Shimano 12-speed cassette and chain. If I'm reading correctly, I might benefit from a 1.0 to 1.5 mm shim between the cassette and freewheel body. Does that sound correct?
I doubt you'll be able to use that much of a shim. Maybe a 1mm one?

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

MrStop wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:35 pm
I'll be running a SRAM AXS Dub crank and Praxis Rings on a 130mm older rim brake frame with a Shimano 12-speed cassette and chain. If I'm reading correctly, I might benefit from a 1.0 to 1.5 mm shim between the cassette and freewheel body. Does that sound correct?
Some frame already have problem using 12 speed cassette as it mount their small cog closer to the end of the allowable space. If you shim it out, make sure when you shift into 10T or 11T (last cog) you still have acceptable gap between chain and the frame.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Can anyone comment on the quality of front shifting when using an 11 speed Shimano chainset and 12 speed Shimano chain. I am planning on reusing my Dura Ace 9000 chainset. One little curve ball is that I will have to use a Shimano mech clamp as the frame I am planning on using has a 28.8mm seat tube, something Sram do not support.

spandy24
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by spandy24

MrStop wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:19 pm
Great thread! This is one of the final pieces I have been trying to figure out on my FrankenRimMech setup viewtopic.php?f=3&t=171686. Actually learned a new term "Sramano". My build won't be AXS, but a mechanical/rim brake setup based on the Sram Force/Red 22 11-spd shifter

I think I have finally pieced together what my final Sramano FrankenRimMech might look like:
  • Shifters - SRAM FORCE 22 2x11
    Ratio - 12 Speed Road Ratchet
    Front Derailleur - Shimano Ultegra R8000/Dura-Ace R9100
    Rear Derailleur - SRAM Force/Red 22 Medium Cage

    Bottom Bracket - SRAM BSA DUB
    Crank Arms - SRAM RED AXS D1 DUB Carbon
    Spider - Croder Spirit Spider/Quark Dzero
    Chainring - Praxis Buzz 53/39 10/11/12sp

    Cassette - Shimano or ZTTO 12spd
    Chain - Shimano Ultegra/Dura-Ace 12-spd

    Brakes - Ultegra R8000
I have sourced the brakes and crank arms. Now looking to gather the remainder for the build. I'll be quite a bit over my original budget depending on deals i can find. However, I should have a modern and lightweight setup. I'm estimating weight savings between 450 and 590 grams over my current groupset depending on final selections.
I'd love to hear how this works out for you. I've been considering a very similar setup. I'd love to get a 12spd HG+ cassette working with a Ratio kit for a Sram Red shifter, i'm just unable to find anything concrete from someone who has tried it.

MrStop
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by MrStop

spandy24 wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:51 pm
MrStop wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:19 pm
Great thread! This is one of the final pieces I have been trying to figure out on my FrankenRimMech setup viewtopic.php?f=3&t=171686. Actually learned a new term "Sramano". My build won't be AXS, but a mechanical/rim brake setup based on the Sram Force/Red 22 11-spd shifter

I think I have finally pieced together what my final Sramano FrankenRimMech might look like:
  • Shifters - SRAM FORCE 22 2x11
    Ratio - 12 Speed Road Ratchet
    Front Derailleur - Shimano Ultegra R8000/Dura-Ace R9100
    Rear Derailleur - SRAM Force/Red 22 Medium Cage

    Bottom Bracket - SRAM BSA DUB
    Crank Arms - SRAM RED AXS D1 DUB Carbon
    Spider - Croder Spirit Spider/Quark Dzero
    Chainring - Praxis Buzz 53/39 10/11/12sp

    Cassette - Shimano or ZTTO 12spd
    Chain - Shimano Ultegra/Dura-Ace 12-spd

    Brakes - Ultegra R8000
I have sourced the brakes and crank arms. Now looking to gather the remainder for the build. I'll be quite a bit over my original budget depending on deals i can find. However, I should have a modern and lightweight setup. I'm estimating weight savings between 450 and 590 grams over my current groupset depending on final selections.
I'd love to hear how this works out for you. I've been considering a very similar setup. I'd love to get a 12spd HG+ cassette working with a Ratio kit for a Sram Red shifter, i'm just unable to find anything concrete from someone who has tried it.
Weather permitting, it will be on the road Sunday. Heading to Arizona in a week and a half to ride up Mt. Lemmon and give it a real trial.

Note that Ratio has a new kit that will be released shortly that is designed to work better with a Shimano cassette and chain.

s3si1u
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by s3si1u

MrStop wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:35 pm
I'll be running a SRAM AXS Dub crank and Praxis Rings on a 130mm older rim brake frame with a Shimano 12-speed cassette and chain. If I'm reading correctly, I might benefit from a 1.0 to 1.5 mm shim between the cassette and freewheel body. Does that sound correct?
I used a .5mm spacer on my AXS with Shimano cassette setup. YMMV of course but on my wheelset I don't think I could fit a bigger spacer.

satanas
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by satanas

MrStop wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:14 am
Note that Ratio has a new kit that will be released shortly that is designed to work better with a Shimano cassette and chain.
^ If they don't hurry up 105 mechanical will be out first, not that it seems that will have a rim brake option...

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MrStop
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by MrStop

satanas wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:32 pm
MrStop wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:14 am
Note that Ratio has a new kit that will be released shortly that is designed to work better with a Shimano cassette and chain.
^ If they don't hurry up 105 mechanical will be out first, not that it seems that will have a rim brake option...
The Shimano Ratio kit is available now. You have to contact them directly to order.

I have seen the rumored 105 mechanical and a bike shop mentioned it being available in May. It would be interesting if Shimano would have a retail groupset that quick on something, to my knowledge, hasn't been publically announced yet. That said, if you already own a SRAM 10 or 11 speed you can upgrade for far less than a new groupset.

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